Torah Praying
Apologetics Faith Hebrew Roots Theology
R. L. Solberg  

What Is Torahism?

With the release of my book, Torahism: Are Christians Required to Keep the Law of Moses?, the most common question I’ve heard is probably pretty obvious: What is Torahism? The full answer is covered in chapter three of the book, but I wanted to share the basics here. And let me state upfront that the Torah is beautiful and holy. It was given by God. Torah-ism, on the other hand, is a false theology that teaches that followers of Jesus are required to keep the Law of Moses; that keeping things like the Sabbath, the kosher food laws, the feasts, and circumcision are mandatory for Christians. And further, that not doing so is walking in sin and disobedience.

It all began with a series of Facebook posts that an old friend of mine, whom I’ll call Bob, published just after Thanksgiving. Bob had taken a dogmatic tone and was aggressively taking Christians to task for celebrating the pagan holiday of Christmas. This struck me as odd because I’d always known Bob and his wife, whom I’ll call Sue, to be devout Christians. While I’ve debated with plenty of atheists over the alleged pagan roots of Christmas, I’d never heard this charge leveled by a fellow Christian. I decided to chime in on Bob’s posts and soon discovered that I had stumbled into a mystery of, well…biblical proportions.

Over the following months, I was exposed to a belief system I was unfamiliar with that I have come to refer to as Torahism. This is an insidious religious movement in which believers in Jesus are denouncing Christianity as a corrupt religion and returning to practicing the Torah as outlined in the first five books of the Bible. They claim that Christians are required to keep the Jewish feasts, observe the Old Testament dietary restrictions, observe Sabbath on Saturday, and all the rest of the Mosaic commandments. I also discovered that, like Bob and Sue, many Torahists aggressively proselytize their view with the zeal of multi-level marketers, openly criticizing Christians who don’t follow them out of what they believe to be a corrupted religion.

Many who hold this belief simply call themselves “believers.” But the term believer is not very useful since every adherent of every belief system is a believer. So I eventually coined the term “Torahism” because this is a movement that is centered on the return to—and keeping of—the Torah. (And I would hasten to add that the term Torahism is no way intended in a derogatory sense. It’s merely a convention for describing a belief system and its adherents. When I refer to someone as a Torahist, it is no different than referring to someone as a Jew, Christian, or Muslim.)

There are many religious groups that hold to the ideology of Torahism, including the Worldwide Church of God (WCG), which was founded in 1933 by Herbert W. Armstrong. The WCG later abandoned its Torahistic positions as heresy and changed its name to Grace Communion International. However, some of its members wanted to hold to their original beliefs, so they founded the United Church of God in 1995. Many other sects have arisen over the past 100+ years including the Seed of Abraham Fellowship, The Hebrew Roots Movement, the Hebraic Roots of Christianity Global Network, First Fruits of Zion, Sacred Name Movement, the Olive Branch Fellowship, and more.

Torahism teaches that we are still required to observe the Saturday Sabbath, obey the kosher dietary restrictions, keep the biblical feasts prescribed in the Torah, and so on. If you think Torahism sounds strikingly similar to Judaism, you’re right. Observant Jews still keep the Law of Moses. However, Torahists do not claim to practice Judaism. Instead, they preach a return to the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. The primary difference between Judaism and Torahism is that Torahism recognizes Yeshua as HaMashiach (the Messiah) promised in the Hebrew Bible and Judaism does not. Torahism is a sort of middle position between Judaism and Christianity:

However, it’s not a middle position that arose historically or in chronological order. It’s not as if Judaism evolved into Torahism, which then evolved into Christianity. Rather Torahism claims to be a newer revelation among Christians. In fact, every Torahist I’ve come across is a former Christian who came to believe that we should not have left the Law of Moses behind when Yeshua arrived. They are trying to correct course and return to keeping the Mosaic Law. Because there is a wide range of beliefs across the continuum shown above, and the differences between them are not always easy to identify, I believe a generous portion of grace should be extended as we engage with our Torahist friends.

There is one critical area that defines Torahism, which is the view held of Yeshua. Consider the following spectrum of beliefs about Him:

A number of people I’ve engaged with hold to Position 1 on the continuum above. They left Christianity in order to keep the Law of Moses, but they didn’t stop there. They now reject the divinity of Christ, deny His role as the Messiah, and even deny the authority of the B’rit Chadashah (New Testament). They have, in essence, if not in name, converted to Judaism. While they hold many beliefs in common with Torahism, engaging with Position 1 believers is essentially a discussion of Judaism versus Christianity.

On the other end, Position 3 believes that Yeshua is both God and Mashiach, and that salvation comes through faith in Him. This position is held by orthodox Christianity and Messianic Judaism (Jews who have come to faith in Yeshua). Messianic Jews are a part of the covenant people of God, enjoying the riches of continuing in their Jewish heritage along with the joy and freedom of life in Christ. There is a lot that Christians can learn about the Jewish roots of our faith and our Savior from our Messianic Jewish friends.

The focus of my book is on Position 2, the belief system I call Torahism. The majority of Torahists are Gentiles who believe that Yeshua was the Jewish Messiah foretold of in the Old Testament, but He was not divine. Instead, they claim that Yeshua’s divinity was a man-made addition that grew out of the historical Roman corruption of Christian theology. Therefore, they conclude, worshipping Yeshua, a mere man, is idolatry and a flagrant sin. And since Yeshua was not divine, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is rejected as well. (I deal with all these claims in the book.)

Torahism’s General Beliefs

It should be noted that Torahism is not a monolithic belief system. It does not have a central church body or set of doctrines. (Though some theologians believe that, left unchecked, it could eventually evolve into its own separate religion.) Torahism is a religious view made up of various smaller sects and the beliefs can vary between those groups. A lack of central doctrine means that each time we engage with a Torahist, we’re likely to hear something a little different.

Therefore, in my book I assembled a collection of their general beliefs—which includes some direct quotes from various Torahists—and created a “creed” for Torahism, so to speak. It was assembled from multiple sources, so every Torahist may not agree with every point. But it’s a solid starting point.

It’s worth noting that there is a sense in which Torahism can be viewed as a noble cause undertaken by brave people. It’s not easy to walk away from the beliefs you grew up with and once held dear. Especially when your friends and family still hold to those beliefs. The commitment Torahists demonstrate toward their newfound convictions is admirable. But of course, the wisdom of any commitment is ultimately measured by the truthfulness of the convictions behind it. And this is where we find Torahism running into a great deal of trouble.

The Dangers of Torahism

A question I’ve been asked many times in various ways is, “Why does it matter?” Why do I feel the need to write a book that “bashes” someone else’s belief system, especially when they believe in the same God and read the same Bible that I do? Shouldn’t we all just get along? These are fair questions.

Engaging with Torahism is important because matters of salvation are at stake. I genuinely believe souls hang in the balance. Torahism is a dangerous heresy for believers in Yeshua because it undermines the work and deity of Christ, which are the very bedrock of Christianity. The core message of the Gospel is that we are sinners in need of saving and God “became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John 1:14), He lived a perfect life,[1] and “gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God” (Eph 5:2) to save us from our sin.[2] If Christ was not divine, then His work on the cross cannot save us; it was a meaningless sacrifice. Torahism denies the Gospel of Christ, therefore, to embrace Torahism is to deny Christ. And there are more alarming implications that flow from the teachings of Torahism which I examine in the book.

There is a second issue to consider, as well. For future or potential believers in Yeshua, Torahism presents a false stumbling block because it asks them to commit to keeping the 613 mitzvot (commandments) spelled out in the Torah. Yet those mitzvot are not required of Christ-followers! In a post-Christian world, the last thing we need to do is pile up unnecessary requirements between truth-seekers and Christ. Salvation requires nothing more and nothing less than faith in Yeshua; it’s Christ plus nothing else.

The Difficulties of Engaging with Torahism

Two issues make the heresy of Torahism difficult to identify and challenge. First, rather than sitting in outright opposition to Christianity, Torahism often varies from it by a matter of degrees. While there are some positions held by Torahism that are diametrically opposed to orthodox Christianity and easy to recognize—e.g., the belief that Yeshua should not be worshipped—a lot of what they teach is accurate and aligns with the Bible.

Where the difficulty arises is in the many small inaccuracies. These seemingly minor false teachings are much more challenging to spot. And they are insidious because they start out with a small error and before you know it they’ve grown into full-blown heresy. As any marksman can tell you, if the barrel of your gun is off by a fraction of an inch while aiming, your bullet can miss your intended target downrange by several feet. And that’s what happens with the theology of Torahism. What seems at first glance to be a valid point often ends up missing the mark by a mile when worked out to its logical conclusion.

The second difficulty is that the average Torahist loves God, knows their Bible, and is well-versed in theology. This makes sense when we consider the typical path into Torahism. Every single Torahist I have engaged with began as a Christian who wanted to worship God in truth. They studied Scripture and were attentive enough to understand and discuss doctrine. At some point along the way, they were introduced to errant theological and historical ideas that they deemed credible enough to consider. (Many of which are looked at in the book.) These are ideas that would have to be pondered somewhat carefully before one could be convinced to leave Christianity. It’s a big step to walk away from the faith traditions that you grew up in, especially when they are still observed by your friends and family.

So by the time a person decides to leave Christianity and embrace Torahism, they have typically given it a lot of thought. They’ve found that the teachings of Torahism ring more true than what they understand the doctrines of Christianity to be. Their new position is based on passages in the same Bible, which they now see in a new light, thanks to the “clarity” that Torahism has given them. Through this process, they’ve become convinced that Christianity is a corrupt theology that their church has been feeding to them. They now believe they see the “true” story of Scripture, as set in its proper Jewish context.

This means that, as Christians, we need to know our stuff! Any serious discussion with our Torahist friends will eventually end up at the level of theological and historical facts and concepts. At any given time, we may find ourselves quoting and interpreting Scripture, debating doctrine, contesting church councils, and tackling many “ologies,” from soteriology to eschatology to replacement theology. It’s my hope and prayer that Torahism, the book, will serve as a useful tool in helping to navigate those discussions.

Don’t Miss This

It’s important to note that the book isn’t about winning an argument. Rather, it’s about clearing away untruths, errors, and misconceptions in an attempt to see God and His Word more clearly. Let’s not make our theological differences a test of fellowship. As we endeavor to determine whether or not Christians are required to keep the Law of Moses, I urge my readers to remember that our fight is not with people, but with ideas!

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Corinthians 10:3-5

[1] 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:18-19, 2:22; 1 John 3:5.

[2] John 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Hebrews 9:28.

89 thoughts on “What Is Torahism?

  1. Mike Berger

    I think you may want to rethink your definition of Torahism. Being a messianic believer I do believe Jesus if 100% man and 100% God. You need to do more research and ask “mainline” messianic teachers such as Tom Bradford, Tim Hegg, Mark Biltz, John K Mckee, Dr Baruch Korman, Gary Lambert, Boaz Michaels, Daniel Lancaster, Rob VanHoff, Caleb Hegg, John Parsons, I could go on but all these messianic torah observant leaders believe Jesus is full God. You have painted a broad brush stroke based on faulty research.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks, Mike! I will check out some of those teachers you listed. I appreciate that. As I mention in my book, there is not one monolithic doctrine for all Torah-observant followers of Yeshua. Messianic believers who accept the divinity of Yeshua are not Torahists as I’ve defined the term. Torahists hold to Position #2 on the chart above, whereas messianic believers hold to Position #3. (Generally speaking.) Shalom, RLS

      1. Ric Joyner

        Rob, many of the people listed by Berger here are “out there.” Dr. Baruch Korman is very careful to keep things within orthodoxy. The others he listed are not. My distinction is Torah Keeping not to whether Christ is divine or not. Even the use of the label hebrew roots is pushed back. But if you say “Torah keeping” now we can coalesce around a theme. This whole thing is “eyes off of Christ” rather than onto Christ. The Torah points to Christ. When the practice of Torah keeping starts we are down the road to practicing Judaism which largely has its roots in rabbinic practices. Similar to a Catholic finding Christ but wanting to practice Catholicism. At some point the Holy Spirit leads us away from false practices yet people are running to it? Our hope is in Christ not Torah and preaching Christ. If one wishes to teach Torah then teach the pointing to Christ, not on the “how to.” I think if you define Torah keeping narrowly it allows people to slip through the cracks of preaching a false focus. Nicely written comment. Ps I know Baruch personally.

        1. Moje jmeno

          Torah and the Word of God is the One and the same Person.

          1. R. L. Solberg

            How did you come to that conclusion, Moje?

          2. Mitchell Chapman

            Torah is The Way (Psalm 119:1) The Truth (Psalm 119:142) and The Life (Deut 32:46-47) Yeshua Messiah/Jesus is The Way, the Truth and The Life (John 14:6)

      2. Mitch Chapman

        Rob, As a suggestion, why not 1st understand what Torah isn’t [“the law” with rules, regulations, rites and rituals]. Josh McDowell once said “rules and regulations without relationship lead to rebellion” After doing so you should logically conclude what Torah is [the teachings, instructions, precepts, principles, wisdom and doctrine of YHVH for righteous living which is the foundation of faith in the biblical Yeshua for ALL “born again believers”. Perhaps, doing so from a “learned” and bonafide ethnic Jew who completely understands Yeshua’s Messiahship and Deity and not from anyone who is Jew-wish? Regardless, when did the church aka ekklesia start (it wasn’t in Acts 2) and what was Antioch where the disciples were 1st called Christianos, anglicized to Christian? Who called them that?

        1. Anonymous

          Perfectly said 🙏

  2. Miguel Labrador

    Seriously,

    You have made the critical error of lumping all Torah pursuant people together, Your ‘research,’ at best, is shoddy, and your conclusions are wrong. You wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a discussion with even a moderately informed Torah observant ‘believer.’

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks for your honest feedback, Miguel. I’m curious. Have you read my book or just this article?

      1. Anonymous

        Is your book available for free?

  3. Joseph Tinney

    I ask you sir a few questions? Do you attend a Church that celebrates Christmas and do you have a Christmas tree in your home? Does your Church celebrate Easter and have Easter Egg hunts for the children? Does your Church have a Harvest Fest at the end of October and perhaps call it Trunk and Treat? These are the practices in a wonderful Church I attended that baffled me. I now believe the same as before about Jesus, but I attend a Messianic Jewish Congregation. I know now that Easter 🐣 is wrong and The Jewish Savior died are Passover. He was the Passover Lamb. Please I request you to answer the three questions above. Thanks.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Hello, Joseph! Thanks for your curiosity. My answers to your questions, in order, are: yes, no, no/yes (there were two questions in this one sentence), and no. I have a question for you: What is wrong with celebrating Christmas and Easter?

      1. Shirley

        Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, He was crucified on 14th Nissan, exactly when God intended, in fulfilment of the scriptures and the festival of Passover, not on good Friday as the man made tradition of Easter.
        We are not asked to celebrate the birthday of Yeshua and I don’t think the exact date is known. I believe the tradition of Christmas has come via The Roman Catholic Church.
        We are told to remember His death and resurrection.
        This is why I do not celebrate Easter or Christmas.
        Blessings
        Shirley

  4. Debbi M

    My husband just ordered your book and I am very eager to read it. Our daughter and son-in-law got involved in a “Hebrew Roots” movement and what you described above sounds exactly like what they now practice. We continue to pray for them to see the whole truth. Thank you.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks, Debbi! I pray the book is a good resource for you. If you have any feedback or questions once you read, let me know!

  5. Erick W

    I just ordered your book on amazon and am excited to read it. I’ve had many many discussions with my Hebrew roots believing family member. He claims to be in the messianic Believer category but I fear that the logical conclusions to his beliefs will land him into heresy. Much of your overview is spot on already. I hope to use your book to compare my own experience and research and perhaps gain deeper insight. Thank you.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks, Erick! While researching for my book, I ran into a number of people that wanted to pursue the Jewish roots of the Christian faith (which is great!) and started out as self-described “messianic believers.” But they inadvertently slid into very heretical beliefs, such as denying the deity of Christ and believing that worshipping Him is a sin. I’d love to hear your feedback once you’ve read the book.
      Blessings!

  6. J. Manse

    Where would the HaYesod group fall on the continuum you lay out? Is their group’s line of thinking something you address in your book?

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks for the question! I do not address HaYesod directly in the book, no. As I understand it, HaYesod is a discipleship course put out by First Fruits of Zion, a Messianic Jewish organization that endorses and supports the UMJC statement of faith. I do touch on Messianic Judaism in the book, including citing from several of their sources. In the continuum I used in the article above, Messianic Judaism would align with Christianity because it asserts the divinity of Yeshua (Jesus) as HaMashiach (the Messiah).

      1. J. Manse

        Thanks for the reply. I was given one of their books by family who are getting wrapped up in it. The thrust of the book seemed to be that you don’t HAVE to follow the law, but you still should because your Christian faith has Jewish roots.

        It seems like there are some rather passionate people all along the spectrum you laid out that much of the Christian world is unaware even exists. I know I was certainly unaware of them.

      2. Mitchell Chapman

        A bit anachronistic as it’s really Christianity that aligns with BIBLICAL JUDAISM aka MESSIANIC JUDAISM. Which came first? Messiah Yeshua was Jewish, the original Disciples and Shaul/Paul were Jewish.

      3. Mitch Chapman

        Rob, The English translation of HaYesod is The Foundation. The foundation is Yeshua, the Living Torah!

  7. Richard Alan Nelson

    You should definitely look at The Assemblies of Yahweh in Bethel, Pennsylvania, and Dr Baruch Korman of LoveIsrael.org. They have excellent biblically-based materials available freely. The problem with Christianity is that it is not consistent with biblical scripture, but corrupted by traditions. For, example, all the early believers in Yeshua (translated as Jesus from the Greek) kept the equivalent of Friday night to Saturday night as the weekly sabbath as HaShem instructed. That was never done away and replaced by Sunday as occurred because of later sinful leaders who wickedly sought to divorce the church from its Torah roots. Similarly, Christmas and Easter are pagan practices later dressed up in a Christian veneer, the latter to avoid allusions to Passover. You only have to follow the news to see how low modern churchianity has fallen from its mission to preach the coming kingdom of god. The level of ignorance of most so called Christians is preparing them to be fodder for the coming beast power and the antichrist.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thanks, Richard!

      If you’re interested in a biblical perspective on these issues, you really should check out my book, Torahism: Are Christians Required to Keep the Law of Moses?. Every one of the issues you brought up is discussed at length: The Saturday Sabbath, corruption in the early years of Christianity, early Christian leaders trying to separate Christianity from it’s Jewish roots, Christmas and Easter are pagan, man-made holidays, and so on. Check it out.

      To reply to the issues you raised, let me ask you a question. If the early Church fathers “wickedly sought to divorce the church from its Torah roots,” why did they choose to include the Torah (and more than that, the entire Tanakh) in the Christian canon? And why, when Marcion proposed a canon that did not include the Tanakh, did the Church fathers label him a heretic and kick him out of the church?

      Christians are free to keep the Saturday Sabbath if they wish, but they are not required to. We are under a New Covenant, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Col 2:16-17) The Sabbath was given as a sign of the Sinai Covenant, which was replaced by a new and superior covenant in Yeshua (Heb 4:1-13). Thus, the old covenant Sabbath rest has been replaced by a new and superior rest in Yeshua. Christians still set aside one day a week as the Lord’s Day for worship and rest. However, it’s not observed as a rule. Rather, it’s a gift, a God-given rhythm for our lives. And because a specific day of the week is no longer required, Christians chose Sunday because it’s the day of the week on which Yeshua HaMashaich rose from the dead, conquering sin and ushering in the New Covenant!

      Regarding Christmas and Easter, check out my blogs that address that issue: Is Easter a Pagan Holiday?, and Is Christmas a Pagan Holiday?.

      Blessings!

  8. Elaine Gibbs

    Mr. Solberg, I just ordered your book, and I can’t wait to read it. My husband has been caught up in the Hebrew Roots movement for almost 4 years now. He says it started years before when a Muslim man asked him why we, as Christians celebrated Christmas. I never gave any thought to this man’s question, as my thinking was why would I care what a nonbeliever thinks about something he is clueless about. I don’t mean that in a harsh way, I wasn’t involved in the conversation. But according to my husband, it bothered him for years. Fast forward 10 years later and my husbands younger brother starts studying Judaism, following Torah, and sucks my husband right in with him.
    This false teaching is destroying our marriage and our family, as my husband is frustrated that me nor our three children (two of whom are adults) are falling for this false teaching. He only wants to talk about the law, and spends most of his time watching YouTube videos of Michael Rood, and 119 Ministries (Have you heard of these?).
    I’ve resigned myself to only pray for him, and I refuse to engage in any conversation regarding things of the Lord. I can’t mention anything about what I’m learning in my bible study because he only wants to talk about the law. I can only have devotions with the kids when he’s at work. He has not gone with us to church for years, and he will not listen to our pastor or any other of the sound bible teachers we’ve listened to for years. I am beyond frustrated. I’m hoping your book helps in some way.
    Thank you for writing in the subject. It has been difficult to find content on this issue from sound teachers.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thank you for reaching out, Elaine. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through and pray my book is helpful for you!

      Sadly, your story is not unfamiliar to me. I’ve heard from a number of people where one of the spouses in a marriage has been pulled into Torahism (the belief that Christ-followers must still be keeping the Law of Moses). As you’ll read in my book, this happened to friends of mine, which is how I became aware of this movement, and why I am devoting so much of my work to trying to shed some biblical light on this false teaching. What makes it exceptionally tricky is that the errors they make in reading Scripture are small and often hard to catch. But they have a big impact on what they believe. Below are links to a few videos I’ve made that you may find helpful:

      Remember that God can use even this trial for good (Gen 50:20). Keeping praying for your husband! He obviously loves God and wants to worship Him in truth, which is a good thing. He’s just lost right now and the believing prayers of a wife are powerful!
      Shalom,
      Rob

  9. Connie Sandoval

    Mr. Solberg.

    I am from Mexico and have been a Christian all my life. Now that I am married I’ve come across with this movement and the way they talk about Christianity. Turns out one of my husband’s friends is part of the “hebrew roots”. As soon as I read your article I understood the topic you were referring to.
    I know you’re not talking about all the torah observants, but instead as you said this movement most of them used to be christians and now claimed the Bible was written in hebrew (all of it) they don’t believe in the holy spirit and they consider that salvation depends on more than just believing that Jesus came to save us.
    I’m worried about my husband, he is not a Christian yet, and he’s close to the gentleman I mentioned before.

    God bless.

    PS: I hope I can purchase your book, soon.

    Connie Sandoval.

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Thank you for reaching out, Connie. Yes, the Hebrew Roots movement is tricky because some of what they teach is good and some of it is very unbiblical and it is often difficult to know which is which. The best thing we can do is spend time studying the Bible for ourselves and praying for God to illuminate His Word to us. I have a number of videos on this issue on my YouTube channel that might be helpful for you. If you have any specific questions or would like me to review any particular Hebrew Roots teachings, please contact me and I’ll help any way I can. God bless! ~Rob

  10. Sal Pezzino

    R. L. Solberg, Thanks for all your hard work Rebuking this cult as we are Commanded in Ephesians 5:11. I have been dealing with this Group on social media and personally. It amazes me that they can be so blind even when you show their error with Biblical and historical Truths. Just their take on Acts 15 is mind blowing. Acts 15 clearly shows us that the law of Moses is not required. Yet, they claim vs21 is sending the gentiles to a Jewish synagogue every Sabbath to learn the law of Moses. I explain that first It just doesn’t say that. Second, it wasn’t included in the letter. Lastly. Jews were killing Christians and why would God the Holy Spirit and all the Apostles send Unclean Jesus loving Gentiles to a Jewish synagogue? So ‘No Greater Burden’ just wasn’t enough. They just dig their heals in deeper. My point I am trying to make is WHY? No matter what they are taught by the false teachers, they soak it in. From being told in both the Book of Romans and Galatians, Paul is teaching Torah Observance. I have not seen any of the Christian men of God who rebuking this Cult explain why those in Torahism are so Blinded to the Truth. Is it Satan? Or God? Satan recycles his lies and this one plagued the 1st Century Church. Or, God ‘ sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.’ Thus keeping these Goats out of Jesus’s Bride????? It so heart breaking, God curses all those who claim to keep the law of Moses and breaks just One, we see this both in the OT and NT. Glory to God Alone

    1. Mitch Chapman

      Sal, One can’t understand what Shaul/Paul said until one understands what he read. By the way what was considered “all Scripture” when he wrote 2 Tim 3:16-17? It may very well surprise you

  11. Holly

    As a long time HRM adherent, but delivered out of it, I testify that idolatry of Jews and Jewishness is also part and parcel of Hebrew Roots. This creates Jewish wannabes all over the place on the one hand and lets the DNA-ethnic-Jews off the hook re: the requirement of salvation through Christ alone on the other hand

    1. Ric Joyner

      Outstanding Holly!

  12. Mitch Chapman

    All of the first disciples were Torah observant Jews. In today’s vernacular Messianic Jews. There are too many categorations made and or assumed

    This is really:
    Position One
    Rabbinic Jews have Torah, may have Yeshua, but NOT the biblical one and therefore no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    Position Three
    Christians have Yeshua, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but do not have Torah believing errantly Yeshua “”fulfiiled” not understanding that was a 1st Century idiom for providing the correct teaching, meaning and understanding, teaching

    Position Two
    Messianic Jews have Yeshua, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Torah thereby providing the bridge for Christians to understand what Shaul was writing and why in its 1st Century context (this is basic exegetical hermeneutics) NOT using a Reformed Theology position of the 1600s still taught and used in the “Western Church” today which is eisegesis.
    Also teaching their ethnic Jewish cousins Shaul did not create a new religion and Yeshua is both the Messiah ben Yosef, the Suffering Servant of Tractate Sukkah 52a , who has already come, ggo,as well as Messiah ben David the ConqueringKing the leadership was seeking when Rome ruled, who is coming back!

    Lets us always remember that Jewsdo not become christians. However, christians, former gentiles, become part of the Commonwealth of Israel, whose Constitution is theTorah and are grafted in. Messianic Jews have been grafted in again.

    Isn’t it interesting that Yeshua spoke Mt 11:28-30 on Shabbat (Mt 12:1)

    As Yeshua said to Shaul on the Danascus Road why are you kicking sgainst the goads?

  13. JPL

    Briefly put . . . My family has been devastated by this false religion of Torahism, my life completely & tragically up-ended.

    In the initial years of marriage, I was curious about Judaism given my wife’s ethnic heritage & connection to the Jewish people. We were both raised in good Christian homes.

    When my wife began studying Torahist materials, keeping the Sabbath, avoiding pork, I was OK with all this. Over the years, she became more and more openly critical of church teaching, attempting to convert everyone to a Torahist mindset. I seriously think she became mentally ill as part of her torahist delusions, exhibiting paranoia & related troubling behaviors. She came to resent me and accused me among other things of subverting our 5 children and preventing them from following torahism. In fact, I think they resented her imposing this false religious system upon them.

    Fast forward a few years, and sadly my previously moral and very good wife had become unrecognizable falling into nearly every major sin forbidden by the 10 commandments: an adulterous relationship, stealing, dishonoring of her own parents, bearing false witness . . . After 25 years together she divorced me, justifying this using the torah, & with her torahist “friend”/accomplice stole unbelievable sums of $$ and chose to live a vagrant life together in a camper trailer preparing for the “end times”. This has been a profoundly shocking experience & lesson learned for me in a spiritual wilderness.

    After re-gaining access to my own home after she & her paramour/torahist convert (her lover but also spiritual “son” in a torahist convert sense) left after her legal divorce of me was finalized (to which I never consented & pled “no contest”), I found a calendar marked with a sad face emoji on the divorce court date, & also a happy emoji w/ “Yeshua” penciled in as if she were doing this out of commitment to her Torahist moshiach! Certainly not something our genuine Lord & Saviour would require, & a painful illustration of tohrahists being led away from Christ, toward Mosaic law/sin/death instead of the grace & truth & salvation of Jesus Christ.

    She continues to berate & isolate family members thru a divisive, judgemental spirit engendered by these deluded torahist beliefs. I wish i could have seen the false teachings sooner & where it would all lead. I tried desperately to save her & our marriage to no avail. 24/7 she had her ear to her phone, couldn’t be pulled away from online torahist false teachers. It was as if she had been captured by a religious cult, right before my eyes, & I was completely powerless in the presence of these mesmerizing demonic forces. The proverbial slow motion train wreck. An abduction of a loved one in plain view, van door opens, snatched, & she’s gone forever :(.

    God has brought me through in spite of great loss, and has spoken to me through passages such as 1 Cor. 7.15, “let the unbeliever depart” & 1 Samuel 16.1 “how long will you mourn for Saul? Fill your horn with oil and go” & Gen. 21.10/Galatians 4.30, “Cast out the bond woman and her son . . . We are not children of the bond woman but of the free.”

    I forgive my now former wife of her adultery & torahist justified abandonment, I truly do, on a daily basis, & pray for her deliverance from this diabolical false torahist teaching straight from the pit of hell (satanic twisting & warping if God’s words as per fork-tongued serpent lies from the beginning) . I fear tohrahism & this ill-advised adulterous path will be the death of her–stolen money dwindling, living like a vagrant, no health insurance, estranged from all who truly love her.

    Such a pitiful end to a seemingly innocuous exploration of Hebrew roots/Torahism.

  14. Mitchell Chapman

    JPL Saddened to learn about your personal experience. The same can be said of any Jewish person believing in Yeshua as Messiah.

    Regardless, just as there remain not a few many “bible thumpers” there are also not a few many “Torah terrorists” who seemingly forget the 2nd commandment which is like the first:Love your neighbor as yourself.

    This is basic Torah.

    Torah remains the teachings, instructions, precepts principles,wisdom and doctrine of G-D for righteous living

  15. JPL

    It’s been several years now, but such a bizarre experience, especially with a so called Torah observer being able to self-justify such an egregious level of moral law violation, i.e. adultery, while observing minor dietary restrictions such as not eating pork hot dogs.

    As I realized what was happening over a period of months, besides hiring a private investigator, I did some legwork myself & showed up @ a Succot camp and discovered (as suspected ) my wife was there with this other man, at a Torahist “feast” celebration of all places!

    I followed up with the leader of this particular messianic fellowship, trying to get a sense of what was going on. After some pointed back & forth questions, he did agree with me that adultery was wrong and agreed to bring the issue up with my former wife and her Torahist paramour convert. Not sure that he ever did, but at least we could find agreement on this issue of adultery.

    Strangely though, this leader didn’t seem aware of the significance of biblical passages such as Acts 15.10 about the attempts to put a yoke or burden (mosaic law) on disciples’ necks which neither they not their ancestors were able to bear. I didn’t want to argue about torahism @ all, & was glad @ least we could agree adultery was wrong. Isn’t it strange to that Torahists would have tolerated an adulterous couple among them until uncomfortably being confronted by an aggrieved husband? Could happen elsewhere too I’m sure, within other religious contexts.

    Another question I have for Torahists comes from Galatians, a passage the Holy Spirit used to prompt me to let her go & cease attempts to reconcile: “Tell me you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? . . . Cast out the slave woman and her son [allegorical reference to mt. Sinai covenant” (Gal 4.21). For more than a year after she divorced me, I kept my wedding band on, kept praying & hoping she would come to her senses and return. Verses such as the above helped me realize the futility of my own efforts. In fact, I believe a true salvation experience happened as I went through this ordeal, looking to God for help, repenting of my own sinfulness.

    To be under Torahism is slavery to sin & death as my personal experience with my former wife has revealed, not just some armchair theorizing hypothetical sort of application. She tried to keep the law in a legalistic & prideful manner, & has instead become a slave to sin, trapped in the deadly consequences of trusting a religious system other than faith in Christ.

    “We are not children of the slave but of the free woman” as Galatians 4.31 states. So yes, I might have been willing to go along with my former wife’s torahist delusions, but thankfully have heard the gentle prompting and questioning of the Spirit, “do you not listen to the law? ”

    Thanks to Christ’s death, burial, resurrection & intercession on our behalf, we now have the new covenant available, & we can through faith become children of promise rather than children of flesh.

    Looking back, I realize that i didn’t have that deep an understanding of such concepts prior to my former wife’s Torahist departure. Without God’s work in my life, I would be in just as bad or even worse of a moral predicament, so again, I forgive her, & I pray others will not be led astray by deceptive torahist false teachings. It’s a real danger, IMHO & personal experience.

    I trust the Lord to turn evil intent of others into blessing, especially for my children who have had to endure such religious weirdness/conflict, and i have resolved to believe in the new covenant, “the Jerusalem above is free . . .you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.” And as Christ taught, very differently from a mosaic law mindset BTW, i will obey Christ’s teachings to love my enemies and do good to those who persecute.

    Not sure how this will all play out as far as details, but the larger new covenant paradigm seems clear.

    1. Ric Joyner

      JPL, absolutely wonderful story of how you handled the situation. I was around Messianic Judaism which has most of it’s attendees as gentiles. Most of these if going to an MJ synagogue (church) are either in the TK or HBR. I have seen many things as you have seen. If you ever wish to connect, I am happy to visit with you. We had a bible study conference with a good friend of mine Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org in Tn. A lady came in and stumbled into our conference. She was a TK and told us the story of how she was Baptist and left her husband and son of many years to be in this movement and had divorced him so that she could follow Torah. His crime? challenging the poor biblical standards. She had just come from a group meeting that was going to sacrifice a goat at a feast! Here are some helps. The same God on Mt Sinai, Who picked Moses and gave him the law was also the same God that came in the flesh and picked twelve disciples. He gave them His power and authority in John 20:21ff. They were the new Moses. The gentiles were offered the opportunity of salvation that was promised to Abraham in Gen 12:1-4. Christ said He came not to abolish but to fulfill the law by dying in the same manner as the sheep did in ex 29 that God offered every morning and afternoon for sin for the people. Literally no one needed to sacrifice an animal as all they had to do was believe in the One to come and place their sins by faith on the lambs each time they were offered. We see an example of this when the Pharisee and publican were turned toward the lamb and each had a different motive. This is what the Torah is supposed to do is reveal sin motive. It says don’t kill but you hate which is what needs to be revealed. All the following of Torah does is reveal sin which is it’s job. But Christ died for us Who was sinless because only God is sinless. Thus in His death He paid for Adam and Eve’s sin as they were sinless when they sinned! Then because we were born under sin and had a sin nature His death fulfilled our debt to God. God shared in Jeremiah 31 about this new covenant. So He fulfilled prophecy as well and thus completed Matthew 5:17-18. The problem I see with the dear brothers and sisters who get caught in this is that they do not realize that Christ gave (by some scholars estimates) 1642 Greek Imperatives that are commands. They should follow the Apostles (acts 2:42) and the Lord’s commands. Also, a mistake made by TKs is that they use the word law and presume it means the Torah of the old testament. I already explained why there is a huge shift now. If Torah means instruction it is logical to conclude that Christ had new commands that all of us could place against our hearts with His Holy Spirit. If you like here, is a list of those commands. I am going through them one by one. It may take my whole life. Go to section 8: https://www.preceptaustin.org/greek_quick_reference_guide

      May the Lord be with you in your loss and pain. Tell the kids God is not about religion because He wants a relationship as in the garden. Blessings to you.

      1. Ric Joyner

        There are a couple of edits to make. Christ did not mention the lambs of ex 29 but he did die for the sins of the people. The lambs were temporary but He was eternal.

    2. Mitchell Chapman

      JPL and Ric Joiner,
      How many Pastors of churches small, medium, large and mega churches have been caught up in adultery? Does one bad apple spoil the whole bunch? I think not. Regardless, saddened to learn of your extremely negative personal experience.

      Are all ‘christians” really so? NOT in my personal experience? Are all messiancs that you lump together true followers of Messiah? Hardly, there are not a few many messy-aniacs with there messy-antics that are a blemish to a 2000+ year old movement.

      However, once again when the Bible is read in it’s Jewish/Hebraic context of it’s historical, cultural, archeological and linguistical background removed from church terminology and denominational doctrine all is well. Sadly, this is not done as the ghost of Marcion is still alive as well as the false dichotomy of Torah and grace.

      When will the “church” understand they have been grafted into Israel and ethnic Jews are NOT converted to Christians as well as maintaining what Messiah commanded, by application, ALL born again believers in the biblical Yeshua to do: “make disciples”?

      1. Ric Joyner

        Michell thanks for answering but I have no concept of how you are correlating what either Jpl and myself are saying. In my post I kindly repudiate the position of Tks very clearly and it was systematically. If you can help me understand I would be grateful. But pls stick to the points we make as that is our posts not an agenda to keep TORAH. We are under the new covenant and we don’t want to practice judaism which doesn’t believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. No one we ever met in HBR keeps torah although they talk about it. They are selective about keeping Torah and that is not keeping Torah. Where is their preaching the gospel? They do preach people to leave the church and keep Torah. A curse Paul said in Galatians. Destruction and hypocrisy in JPLs experience. My post was the correct theology for understanding the new covenant. Pls forgive me but Your post sounds more like a brochure for TK HBR. But I do not mean any sarcasm, meanness, and would encourage you to keep the 1642 commands the Lord and the Apostles taught us in Greek Imperatives. May the Lord bless you!

        1. Mitchell Chapman

          Rick Joyner,
          For clarification and edification there remains a huge difference between the numerous forms of Rabbinic JudaismS and Messianic Judaism. Some Rabbinic Jews acknowledge Yeshua’s messiahship but reject His Deity. Messianic Judaism understands with perfect faith Yeshua’s Messiahship and Deity. The numerous forms of Rabbinic JudaismS practiced today ARE NOT the same JudaismS as was in the 1st Century where there also numerous. Messianic Judaism recognizes Jew and Gentile as “one new man” and doesn’t adhere to church doctrine and or theology which is basically traced back to the Reformation. Nothing wrong with the Reformation EXCEPT they reformed the catholic church and DIDN’T go all the way back to the Nicean Council and perhaps even further back.

          Your attempt at referring to Torah as a curse is once again a “churched understanding” devoid of using proper hermeneutics of which I’m certain you were taught “coming up”.

          Gal 3:13 1 of 2
          Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse (Deuteronomy 21:22—23; on “stake” here see Acts 5:30). The curse spoken of applies to legalists (9-12) and is stated in v. 10, which quotes Deuteronomy 27:26. The elements comprising the content of the curse are detailed in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. But those who are not legalists, those who do have trust, are not under the curse, because the Messiah redeemed us who trust in Him and in G-D from the curse pronounced in the Torah at Deuteronomy 27-28. How? By becoming cursed on our behalf, in our place. This He did by His own choice (John 10:17-18), out of His love for us (Rom 5:6-8). That G-d’s justice is consistent with the Messiah’s atoning vicariously for our sins through undergoing death and being cursed, is not proved here, but it is proved elsewhere in both the TaNaK and Brit Chadasha. See, for example, Isaiah 53:5-6, 12, quoted with further references at 1 Pet 2:24-25 also Rom 3:25-26.
          What is proved by citing Deuteronomy 21:22-23 at the end of v. 13 is that the Messiah’s being crucified implied His becoming cursed. The idea that the Messiah can be cursed contradicts some traditional Jewish notions about the Messiah, but not all. For the curses prescribed in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 are physical and emotional sufferings, not spiritual, and certainly not eternal removal from G-d’s presence. The idea of a Messiah who suffers in sympathy and in company with the people of Israel is well known in Judaism. The TaNaK describes this most explicitly at Isaiah 53, which clearly pictures the Messiah undergoing the curse of suffering and death on behalf of others’ sins (on whether Isaiah 53 applies to the Messiah see Mt 2:15). For a number of quotations from later Jewish sources, see Chapters 12 and 17 of Raphael Patai’s The Messiah Texts. The following example of such a citation is from the Babylonian Talmud and assumes two Messiahs. The Messiah, son of Yosef, is thought of as suffering vicariously and dying for Israel, that is, being “cursed”; while the other, Messiah, son of David, is regarded as the one who will establish peace on earth.
          ‘”And the land shall mourn (Zechariah 12:12). Rabbi Dosa and the other rabbis differed on what this verse means. The one said that they will mourn over Mashiach Ben-Yosef, who will be slain [in those days]; while the other said the mourning is over the yetzer hara’ [the evil inclination], which will be slain… The Rabbis taught that the Holy One, blessed be he, will say to Mashiach Ben-David, ‘Ask anything of me, and I will give it to you, for it is written, “The Lord said unto me, You are my son, this day I have become your father; ask of me, and 1 will give you the nations as your inheritance “‘(Psalm 2:7-8).’ When Mashiach Ben-David sees that Mashiach Ben-Yosefhas been slain, he will say to God, ‘Master of the World! All I ask of you is life!’ God will say to him, ‘Even before you said, “life,” your father David prophesied about you, as it is written, “He asked life of you, and you gave it to him'” (Psalm 21:5).” (Sukkah 52a)
          The Brit Chadasha, of course, shows that Mashiach Ben-Yosef and Mashiach Ben-David are the same person, Yeshua, whose human descent was from King David, whose legal but not physical father was Yosef, and whose resurrection has made it possible for Him to come twice and fill both roles. For more on Zechariah 12:10-14 see John 19:37, Rev 1:7.

        2. Mitch Chapman

          Rick Joyner,

          Take the time and do not skim!

          Gal 3:13 2 of 2

          1. Ric Joyner

            Can’t Michell, it is just repeats of what other TKs put out. I call them talking points. It really does not present correct theology is an abuse of scripture principles of interpretation. I have talked, been a part of, debated and it is all the same. It as if you guys wish to preach rather than debate. I still have questions out to you about where and how you learned to study the bible. If you say on your own that is an explanation. I wish you well. Follow the Lord Jesus Christ not Moshe. However we can learn wonderful lessons if applied to our hearts from both Testaments. Podcasts with scholars on are Christians supposed to keep the law. But Professor Solberg does very well here. https://biblestudycompany.com/blog?category=44

        3. Mitchell Chapman

          Ric, You wrote “My post was the correct theology for understanding the new covenant”. Do you understand the basic requirements for a covenant? Regardless, what have you been taught, thought, bought and or caught is the specific name of “the covenant they broke” which Jeremiah refers to in 31:32? Your answers determines your theology and doctrine!

          1. Ric Joyner

            You may go to our website and see what is there Michell. http://Www.biblestudycompany.com Blessings

  16. Mitchell Chapman

    Ric Joyner,
    You are forgiven. There remains no old and or new covenant which is more of the stereo-typical western church mindset systematic theology and doctrine. There are no Hebrew for words for what you errantly refer to an/the “old covenant”. However, it is properly referred to by the acronym as TaNaK aka Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Scriptures.However, the Hebrew for what is rendered in English as the/a “new covenant” is as you should well be aware remains Beh·REET chah·dah·SHAH. What is “new” is that Torah has become written on the minds and in the hearts of ALL believers with faith in the biblical Yeshua.

    It also appears to me that you are conflicted as to the difference between a covenant and a testament. To which the following is for your edification…….Covenant OR Testament?

    Proper understanding of the Scriptures requires two things. First, there needs to be a willingness to go back to the original Hebrew text and research key words and phrases. Second, there also needs to be a study of the ancient Hebrew culture. Very simply stated CONTENT WITHOUT CONTEXT and CULTURE is simply NOT ENOUGH!

    Many of us confuse the words/terms “covenant” and “testament” by using nonbiblical (modern) definitions and impose it into our belief systems because of the words in our English translations. In fact, as was true of both the Greek and the Roman cultures, some dictionaries even today seem barely able to differentiate between the two. And yet, IN ANCIENT HEBREW SOCIETY, the context and culture in which the Bible was written, THOSE TWO WORDS NEVER MEANT THE SAME THING!

    A testament is a Greek legal document that defines the lawful rights of all those to whom it applies. A Last Will and Testament, in which someone details his wishes for the disposition of his property after his death, is a prime example. In such a case, the Greek practice of giving
    greatest weight to the most recent such “testament” makes good sense. Legally, any new testament makes null and void any previous “old” testament by the same party. A newer Will always supersedes an older Will.

    By contrast, the word covenant defines an ongoing relationship with no appointed end. Rather than being a legal document, a covenant is a commitment to develop a certain kind of continuing relationship. By its very existence it implies a dynamic interaction between partners, a growing organic process.

    Given that, there’s really no legitimate way to use the words “new covenant” to imply that you are somehow trotting out a new one to replace an old one, as you might send in a backup to replace a quarterback with a broken leg. You can adapt an existing covenant by adding additional conditions, but you can’t terminate it, declare it null and void and or replace it with a different or a “new” one.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what so many misguided believers attempt to do when they claim that the “New Testament” replaced the “Old Testament”.

    Man’s arbitrary attempt at organizing Scripture into two halves have NO significance. From
    G-d’s perspective there is no such thing as what we call the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament”. He created Scripture to define his ALL inclusive, ALL encompassing plan of redemption as an on going COVENANT between Himself and us. The defining document for that single, unified, divine plan is the Bible. PERIOD!

    So forget the “new” concept. The Hebrew name for the Gospels and the books that follow, Matthew through Revelation, is B’rit Hadashah (Jer 31:31-34). The Hebrew word b’rit means “covenant” [1] which is further defined as “eating together, banquet.” [2] What comes to mind is a picture of friends interacting and sharing a meal together. The ancient Hebrews recognized their responsibility to provide a meal together whenever a guest entered their homes. They were also responsible to protect the life and the possessions of anyone who came inside their home, as demonstrated in Gen 19:1-3, Parasha Vayera, through the account of Lot and the two angelic strangers he entertained. (Gen 19:1-3)

    Borit is a related word. It’s spelled the same as b’rit, but means “to cleanse, to purify” [3] and a “son of the sign”. When G-d called Abraham into a deeper relationship, He asked him to circumcise himself as a sign of the covenant relationship between then (Gen 17:11). Circumcision was also an outward sign of the purity, holiness, that G-d imputed to Abraham at that time. Therefore, Abraham and his sons became “sons of the sign.”

    In Hebrew, hadashah comes from the word meaning “to renew” as in “a cycle of restoration”, or “to return to a previous state” as when you “polish a sword.” [4] The same word is also used in reference to the lunar cycle, meaning that we don’t get a new moon every month, the old one just gets restored to a previous condition. The same thing is true of B’rit Hadashah, meaning that somewhere in the history of covenant we’ve been here before!

    Therefore, a more accurate title for the ‘New Testament’ would be “Renewed Covenant,” or “Renewed Relationship ,” NOT “New Covenant” as Jeremiah 31:31-34 is commonly mistranslated.

    This means something entirely different from what we imply when we call the last 24 books of the Bible by their Greek-based title, “The New Testament.” Unlike a testament, in which the legal aspects of contract are everything, a covenant’s contractual elements play only a small part.

    Our attempts at organizing Scripture into two halves really have no significance whatsoever. From G-d’s perspective there is no such thing as what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament. Why? He created Scripture to define His all-inclusive, all-encompassing plan of redemption as an ongoing covenant between Himself and us. The defining document for that single, unified, divine plan IS the Holy Bible!

    God’s Plan Unveiled
    In the Scriptures, the unveiling of Gods plan begins with the first chapter of Genesis and ends with the last chapter of Revelation. Nothing supersedes or eliminates anything else as the plan unfolds. “Contractual legalities” are few and far between. Therefore, the Bible IS NOT in any significant sense whatsoever a Greek testament. It’s not Greek! Therefore, the terms “Old Testament” and “New Testament” simply do not apply!

    Those terms were imposed on the Bible in the second century by the early church fathers. At that point, most of them were converted Greek philosophers with no Hebraic roots and apparently they also had little to no understanding of where “their” Bible came from.

    The Old and New Testament labels were unfortunate distractions from Gods plan. They have created a false dichotomy and ongoing misunderstandings that have now persevered for almost two thousand years. Talk about ‘the traditions of men”! This implies that the Old Testament became less important, or was even “canceled” the moment the New Testament joined the “canon.”

    In AD 153, Ignatius of Rome wrote in ‘A Letter to the Philadelphians’ that “The Old Testament is good, the New Testament is better. The Old Testament is the imperfect, waiting for the perfect to replace it.” Imagine that, a church father who didn’t know how to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15); imposing his eisegesis. A classic example of error begetting error!
    If Shaul had heard that about his letters to the Greeks, he would have rolled over in his grave! To cite just one familiar example, in 2 Timothy 3:16, Shaul said: “All Scripture is inspired by
    G-d and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in
    righteousness.”

    Where did these inspired writings come from? When G-d spoke forth Torah on Mt Sinai! This is about as “Old Testament” as you can get! In fact, when Shaul wrote the above, much of the the so-called “New Testament” had not even been written yet. And none of it had been officially canonized.

    The same is true of this passage from James 2:8: “If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,’ you are doing well.” The “Scripture” James referred to was, of course from Leviticus 19:18, Parasha Kedoshim.

    Reinforcing Important Truths
    By the time Ignatius wrote ‘A Letter to the Philadelphians’, the Greeks had already set in motion this fundamental shift in how the next ninety-some plus generations of believers would view their own Holy Scriptures. In review some of what we’ve said so far, a more accurate English title for the “New Testament” would be “Renewed Relationship” or “Renewed Covenant,” reflecting two essential realities about ancient biblical covenant.

    First, The nature of covenant is never to become null and void, each “renewed” covenant includes everything that came before. God’s promises are eternal. So a new or renewed covenant, (the so-called “New Testament”), does not invalidate those that preceded it, (the so-called “Old Testament”); it simply includes and expands them.

    Second, When a covenant is renewed it may then contain additional and/or expanded provisions, but they are folded into the existing covenant, which still remains in force.

    In summary covenant and testament ARE NOT the same thing! A covenant is a mutual agreement defining an ongoing relationship between the parties, without end. A testament is a legal contract defining the obligations between the parties, with a definite beginning and end.

    1) Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the “Old Testament”, p.141
    2) Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the “Old Testament”, p.141
    3) Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the “Old Testament”, p.142
    4) Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the “Old Testament”, p. 263

    More at another time

    1. Ric Joyner

      Michell your comment: “G-d’s perspective there is no such thing as what we call the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament”. By inserting a dash where an o should be is straight out of rabbinic Judaism. It is an attempt to not break the 3rd commandment. However, this is broken constantly with the sin in our hearts not outward taking a vowel out. It shows how far people in Torahism will go to do the outward which is what the Pharisees were doing. And teaching people doctrines of men like this is not using the word of God correctly. Carrying the name of God and demanding people follow Moses vs Christ is incorrect and using the name of the Lord in vain depending on the heart of the person. This is what is meant when Christ said listen to those sitting in Moses seat when they are teaching the word of God but do not live like they do or mimic their way of life. (paraphrase) JPLs story shows why. Blessings to you. No need to discuss any further.

  17. Ric Joyner

    Michell where did you learn to study the bible? Meaning how did you arrive at the handling of scripture in this way? Ps i am very sorry that I cannot but skim your long post. It seems in online forums for the most part TKs, do not answer the simple discussion questions as I asked you to correlated what JpL and I were both discussing and i get a whole new post on something unrelated. Almost like standard TK teaching on your position which i am aware of already. Your first comment showed me a discussion is not possible when you said there is no old and new testament. This is blatantly untrue. Anyway i wish you well and I have been around this HBR for many years. You can see all of our podcast discussions on https://biblestudycompany.com and look in our whole series which debate on “do Christians have to keep the law?”. Even dr Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org agrees with us. The answer is no as Paul says. May the Lord open both of our eyes to learn to live praiseworthy to Him. We have 1642 Greek Imperatives to study now from Christ. Matthew 28:16-20 we must go make discipled of Christ!

    1. Mitchell Chapman

      Ric,
      Your question to me of “Michell where did you learn to study the bible? Meaning how did you arrive at the handling of scripture in this way?” Is tantamount to someone who drops a letter in someone’s given name making them to be of a gender they are not!

      You are free to spell the English rendering of אֱלֹהִים anyway you choose. However, I will follow ancestors from a perspective of personal conviction and use G-D, G-D, L-RD, L-RD, HaShem or Adonai except when speaking in churches throughout Africa where I minister mostly in Uganda

      However, isn’t the heart of your question really do you have the “academic qualifications I do?”

      The question is really where did you do so and what denominational doctrine and or western church theology and traditions do you hold to?

      In essence you are attempting to make me an ethnic Deut 30:6 Jew into a Christian and hold to the same school of thought the Pharisees of Yeshua’s day did: you didn’t come from one of our schools and therefore we reject you .

      How does this fulfill the Royal law of love which remains pure Torah?

      I leave you with this my brother, do you subscribe to the use of hermeneutics which is properly “rightly dividing the word of truth” based on the cultural, historical, archeological and linguistical context of Scripture or use modern day terminology which is anachronistic?

      I will always err on using proper definitions and therefore covenant not testament and attempt correcting those who are teachable with their errant comments in an poor attempt to reprove me

      Yom naim achi
      (Pleasant day my brother)

  18. JPL

    Matt 23.24’s depiction of “religious” leaders straining @ a gnat but swallowing a camel typifies my experience w/ my torahist wife’s adulterous abandonment. Also, she would never admit but abrogated God’s commands in a Mark 7 .11 “corban” fashion, claiming to serve God, but actually disobeying both the law & NT teachings of Christ (may God forgive her & open her eyes).

    Sure, such happens in other religious circles as humans have a sexual aspect to their being. But mine was a uniquely torahist experience which I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. She became a FFOZ, 119 (& related “ministries”) zombie over time, just like mind control, & no reasoning allowed, just lengthy diatribes in response to simple questions. No one, & I mean no one, not her parents, siblings, children, former church friends, could speak reasonably with her after this torahist mindset had taken over her personality. Stubbornness & pride now prevent any chance of recovery :(.

    Typical responses parroting 119 etc al were the norm w/ her, “that’s what you thought this scripture meant, here’s what it actually means/says . . . [Insert diatribe & circuitous rabbit trails & semantic casuistry]”.

    First came no pork, then no pagan holidays such as Christmas (on my 1st granddaughters very 1st Christmas 🙁 ). And on and on . . . Continuing till today, recently chastised daughter in law for saying “happy birthday Jesus”! This has/does not make for good family relations to say the least! Also started saying she’s not “christian” anymore, again parroting torahist materials/resources. Now refers to “churchianity” in derogatory fashion! This is scary, to deride the bride of christ and God’s beloved people in this fashion!

    As already mentioned, God’s word has comforted me, albeit in painful realization of the necessity to “cast out the bondwoman & her son . . . The son of the bondwoman will not be heir with the child of promise” (Gal. 4).

  19. Ric Joyner

    JPL this is exactly the thing that is happening to our discussions in here as well. The whole anti Christian thing is part of MJ and TKs as well. And your points are well taken as this is what one sees. A simple question results in spewing nonsensical stuff that sounds like real spiritual stuff but is nonsense and minutia. But nonetheless HBR is about living a Jewish lifestyle better than the Jews do which may be immensely prideful. For some reason they wish to complete the Torah because they think they can in the flesh. My heart goes out to them. Why are they following Moses and not Christ? It is based in false biblical study methods or none at all. Trying to carry the word Torah into the new testament is another false bible study methods. What did Christ fulfill? Why did Christ die? Didn’t we die with Him by faith? Romans 8 One of my closest friends was a “pastor” of a Hebrew Roots group. His pastoring ended in disgrace for the same reason your situation did. He was a gentile who wore tzit tzit on his pants. We were at a conference and he came up to my wife and I and told a terrible sexual joke as if it was nothing. It so shocked us we left the conference. I confronted him later and he was apologetic however the affair was under way in the church. We did not attend the church (or Hebrew Roots heritage church). Thank you so much JPL. I am so grateful for the careful praiseworthy life you are moving to live with Lord. I haven’t answered Michell for the reasons you said. Feel free to contact me as I would love to carry on a conversation and provide you with even more research. On our blog we have podcasts on this very thing and http://www.biblestudycompany.com. Blessings and again much appreciated. 119 is so heretical is baffling. No matter who challenges them they keep on. Same with FFOZ. Gentiles being Jewish. Here is a great article to see how HBR descends into Judaism. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/belief/articles/observing-torah-like-jesus

    https://www.hebrewrootsrefuted.com/

    1. Anonymous

      Thx Ric. Much appreciate these links & additional resources.

      The entire ordeal just left me so disgusted & appalled. Her heart had become so hard as she cited Moses & the Torah in support of her decision to divorce me. As Christ taught, Moses only permitted such divorce because of this hardness of heart, something I’ve now seen firsthand & up close 🙁

      BTW, tzit tzit was also something she began to wear. She actually lost it @ the Succot camp mentioned above & someone had to return by mail. Baffling, lose all sense of morality, but at least you’ve held on to your tzit tzit 🤔

      These torahist delusions have such serious consequences! I do fault these “ministries” such as FFOZ, 119 et al, & would say they were a big part of my former wife’s downfall. Just like Satan’s original lie in questioning what God had said, & offering untruthful alternative “here’s what God really means” types of explanations & casuistry.

      thx again

  20. JPL

    One bad apple might not necessarily transmit rot to the whole box of apples, if it’s removed in time 🙂 .

    But, “a little leaven/yeast leavens the whole lump” (1 cor. 5.6; Gal 5.9).

    Further, “beware of the leaven/yeast of the pharisees . . . The teaching of the pharisees”(Matthew 16.11-12).

    Today’s warning, IMHO & experience, beware the Torahists & their false & dangerous teachings.

    1. Ric Joyner

      Perfectly said!

      1. Mitchell Chapman

        Ric and JPL,

        It’s really “the leaven” of doctrine and theology of the Western church’s misuse and misunderstanding of Scripture

        Something, you both have demonstrated by your previous comments

        Brothers, I’m not a newbie and know of what I speak!

        Numbers 6:24-26

        1. JPL

          But Christ specifically explains that leaven/yeast is the teaching of the pharisees!

          Wow, you know nothing of my “pedigree” & you’re going to resort to this? Accusations of mis-using/mis-understanding scripture?

          The HS is my teacher & like instructing the apostles & brethren @ the Jerusalem council, where the message from the HS & apostles is clear, the HS has delivered ne from following the torahist false teachings which have destroyed my former wife. And has gently prompted regarding the errors of torahism which are serious and very dangerous.

          In Acts 15, in response to those who wanted to place the burden of the law on gentile converts, it was not just the apostles, but the Holy Spirit who responded to these questions.

          Do you have greater understanding than the HS?

          This is dangerous territory, Mr. Chapman. Consider carefully. Human wisdom is insufficient here, & eternal destinies hang in the balance on the question of belief VS unbelief, human arrogance & pride VS a spirit of humility, human fleshly wisdom VS wisdom from above.

          I attempted to raise the above w/ my former wife, using the example of Abraham & his wife’s resorting to carnal, human wisdom. Sadly, no response but just stubborn resistance, foolhardy self-rughteousness which everyone else sees clearly, like the proverbial emperor w/ no clothes.

  21. Mitchell Chapman

    JPL,
    Your statement that I know nothing of your pedigree applies to you when attempting to reprove me.

    Who is the Emperor without clothes? It’s not myself brother!

    1. JPL

      BTW, didn’t mean to imply it was you who had no clothes on, but rather her. she, for example lectured female family members on the importance of modest apparel, all the while living w/ another man.

      1. Mitchell Chapman

        JPL,
        Thank you for the clarification. Sadly there are many “in the church” who likewise talk the walk but do not walk the talk!

  22. JPL

    Could care less about anyone’s “pedigree” including my own, other than having Christ’s living presence in my very being.

    I claim no special wisdom except that gained from the spirit of Christ thru having had to confront the demons of Torahism in my own family, entrenched in the mind of my former beloved wife. These torahist doctrines of demons & deceitful spirits (1 Tim 4.1-3) have destroyed something/someone which/who formerly was very good, an upright & moral Christian.

    This sort of trouble seems to be a pattern per Solberg’s teaching, that is others have had similar experiences, dysfunctional relationships, a lack of spiritual unity & Christian charity as a result of torahist religiosity. This is not of Christ but rather from below, earthly, sensual, carnal bondage.

    I’ve shared my story here in hopes of warning others of the dangers of Torahism, & want to point to Christ above all things as lost humanity’s only hope. Following Moses & the Torah will result in spiritual wilderness wanderings, circuitous, rambling, staggering & stumbling.

    1. Ric Joyner

      Jpl thanks for sharing. I have seen it too. Blessings to you

  23. Mitchell Chapman

    JPL,
    Extremely saddened to learn of your dismay

    Writing as you did: “Following Moses & the Torah will result in spiritual wilderness wanderings, circuitous, rambling, staggering & stumbling” demonstrates throwing out the baby with the water.

    The foundation of your christian faith is Torah which remains the teachings, instructions, precepts, principles, wisdom and doctrine of YHVH for righteous living. Throw it away and you have no salvation which is of the Jews. No, Torah doesn’t provide salvation, Yeshua who is the Living Torah does! No, I do not adhere to Torah for salvation, I do so because The Living G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said if you love me keep my commands. (John 14:15, 21-24; 15:10-14) Where are these found? Torah!

    Laila tov brother

  24. JPL

    This is curious.

    Approximately what % of the Torah do you adhere to? In my experience, torahists cherry pick mere tokens of mosaic law, the more obvious outward indications, culturally appropriating some might even say the artifacts and select cultural heritage emblems of the Jews.

    This was certainly the case w/ my former torahist wife. She might have had a Jewish sounding surname from way back in Europe before ancestors emigrated, but was otherwise a good Christian girl from an American family. It was almost like play-acting, selective avoidance of most torah laws, adoption of the most obvious elements.

    The article linked above by Ric touches on what seems to be an obsessively psychological need to partially, even secretly or cryptically, identify w/ an otherwise obscure Jewish heritage ( https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/belief/articles/observing-torah-like-jesus ).

    And what is it with an obsessive need to convince everyone that torah is the right way? I mean if it’s right for you, great, bask in your discovered truth, but instead there seems to be a fanatical inner drive to convert everyone even if relationships & families end up getting destroyed in the process. My former wife was happy to donate regular portions of my paycheck to these strange torahist “ministries” BTW, so that was part of the financial fleecing which I went through aside from the emotional affliction of her unjustified divorce.

    And come to think of it, they i.e. 119 et al are making good $$$ too not just from donations, but sales of these cultural artifacts. I wonder if they accept $$$ for sales on Saturday? 🤔

    I had no problem over the years celebrating passover, purim, or in learning more about Jewish & Israeli history & religion. Yet when this fanatic torahist religiosity went to the next level, berserker Torahism shall we say, that became unendurable as constant conflict emerged at home, at church, all social settings, until finally a convert/paramour came along, online relationship @ first, who was willing to play along w/ this charade for financial gain of his own IMHO.

    Maybe I’m to blame for my own woes having not confronted cultist Torahism sooner, & having got his foot in the door, the devil then came right in? I’m extremely wary of legalistic torahism now, though do acknowledge the cultural & religious importance of God’s chosen people, & his covenant with them as revealed @ mt. Sinai.

    That covenant was written on stone, the new covenant on a believer’s heart.

    BTW, what would you advise someone in my position as far as re-marriage? She seems to have married her paramour/convert, not legally though it would appear (doesn’t want to jeopardize receipt of my SS benefits) just a messianic Jewish ceremony conducted by themselves, perhaps even pre-dating her legal divorce against me (in the name of Moses).

    Does this mean I am free to re-marry? I’d be interested to hear your opinion on this question.

    1. Mitchell Chapman

      JPL,

      Once again I am saddened as to what happened to you personally.
      I have seen basically the same thing with wrong counsel from christians who were the cause of breaking marriages. Why you continue to lump everyone together is beyond me. Doing so is just not right!

      It has been my personal experience that those “in the church” who ask me, a Messianic Jew, not a Christian and not from the Nations aka Gentile something similar to your “Approximately what % of the Torah do you adhere to?” will, regardless of the answer attempt to errantly use James 2:10 as their silver bullet. The answer is the combination of the 613 commandments, statutes, judgments and testimonies which comprise all of Torah (Gen-Deut) are not for everyone! Why would that be? Some are only for men. Others only for women. Some are only for Levites, others only for the High Priest. Some relate to when there is a temple, others are only for when in the land.

      What you refer to in the link above is the Ephraimite error whereby anyone from the Nations who comes to faith has some biological Jewish blood running through them. As I’m certain you are well aware, there are only 12 gates in which to enter the New Jerusalem all named for the original 12 Tribes. (Rev 21:12) Entering through one doesn’t make anyone Jewish. There is a saying that many believers in the biblical Yeshua are Jewish; but some are Jew-wish. I am the former; NOT the later.

      The Torah of Adonai has not been abolished, and the observance of it is still the valid expression of a godly faith…not as a means of salvation, but as the God-given path of sanctification. The Torah given to Moshe (Moses) is the same Torah that Messiah Yeshua taught us to observe. We are taught not only to observe it, but to also make disciples in the name of Yeshua the Messiah, and to teach them to live Torah- pursuant lives. (Matthew 5:16-19; but do not neglect Acts 15:21 as not a few many do)

      It doesn’t matter if you are Jewish or from the Nations, no bonafide Messianic Jew believes that one must keep the Torah, or be observant of it, to be saved. You cannot force holiness on anyone and it must be the desire and choice of the heart. So, although we aim to lead by example, and exhort our brothers and sisters to a life of holiness, we don’t force it on anyone. We exercise patience, love, and grace toward others, leaving room for Adonai to work in hearts.

      ​With that being said, we also believe that if one chooses to walk a life of holiness by G-d’s standards, the Torah describes that walk. That is what we mean by “pursuing a Messianic Torah-centered life,” or being “Torah Pursuant.” We may all be on a different part of the path when it comes to walking with HaShem, but our goal is to walk in a manner patterned after the Word. Torah describes the lifestyle of the redeemed.

      As seen in Romans 10:4, it is evident that the goal is Yeshua HaMashiach (The Messiah) and we know what Yeshua’s life looked like. He was continually pursuant of His Father’s Torah. Because of this, we know that he was the perfect example of grace, mercy, loving-kindness, truth, and love, which we are called to follow. Our hearts desire and highest purpose is to lift up Yeshua and call all G-d’s people to learn to be better talmidim (disciples) of our Master, and our Rabbi.

      My sound balance biblical counsel relating to divorce remains the same: There are three reasons to consider a divorce. This is not carte blanche to obtain one. The reasons are: abuse, abandonment and adultery. Reconciliation should always be attempted where possible. Many times it isn’t for a variety of reasons. Regardless, it takes two to reconcile. Reconciliation doesn’t mean restoration! However, you can’t have the later without first having the former. This is of course demonstrated through Jacob and Esau. They were reconciled; but not restored.

      I am not a “torah terrorist” and would always err on the side of grace and love which are foundational principles found in Torah. Therefore, knowing your situation, my counsel is become remarried.

      The original marriage covenant, given at Sinai in Exodus 19 demonstrated the 4 essential elements of covenants. This was broken in Ex 32 and remains “the covenant they broke” which Jeremiah referred to in 31:32. The renewed covenant is written on a circumcised heart (Deut 30:6)

      Laila tov brother

      1. ric joyoner

        JPL this notion of a renewed covenant is not correct. What is basically saying by HBR and in this case by Mitchell is that we must continue Torah which is not biblically correct. Rather than write the whole thing out as this gets tiring reiterating this frequently here is an excellent resource to show with grammar and languages a biblical look at whether we are under a new covenant or the Torah is renewed. But Christians (those who follow Christ as the Holy Spirit called us in Acts) are not under any covenant as that is for Jews. We BENEFIT in the new covenant by the Holy Spirit within us! We don’t join Israel as Romans 11 says we join the faith of Abraham who was a gentile. Take a look at this website it is very thorough. https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/hebrew-roots-movement-new-covenant-or-renewed-covenant/

  25. JPL

    So it seems then in broad brush strokes you agree w/ the premise that Torah “pursuance” is permissible, especially for genuinely ethnic Jews, but not required for salvation. Seems reasonable enough.

    Nonwtheless, the Torah berserker demons afflicting my former wife lack any reasonableness whatsoever, more like the 119 dude Mutria confronted by Solberg on the heresy of Torah being required to maintain one’s salvation! (direct quote from 119’s Mutria)

    Galatians 3.28 comes to mind as well, we are all one in Christ, the previous distinctions between Jewish & gentile, male & female, slave & free, of no relevance under the new covenant in this time period.

    What about literal circumcision? Is this optional too? Or a requirement?

    I’ve come to the same conclusion BTW regarding re-marriage in my case, knowing in clear conscience that I did not divorce her, also now agreeing w/ Deut 24’s prohibition of divorcee returning to former husband, & am happy to be able to say, like Abraham’s servant in Gen 24.27, I being in the way the Lord has led me to my Rebekah 🙂 .

    1. Mitchell Chapman

      JPL,
      I live my life as a Torah pursuant Messianic Jew in a Messiah centered life to the best of my ability, knowing full well I will always fall short. Regardless, there is NO ONE WAY do it and it looks different on different people. Aren’t there some 42,000 different Christian denominations?

      The Torah was meant for YIsrael AND ALL THOSE OF THE NATIONS who join its commonwealth (Ephesians 2) and take hold of its covenants (Zechariah 8:23). In this sense Torah is the Constitution. Anyone from the nations joining themselves to Yisra’el’s commonwealth is welcomed with open arms and is treated as an equal citizen with equal responsibilities and privileges (Num 15:15-16). Our faith walk is more accurately described as indicated above as being Messiah centered and “Torah-pursuant.”

      In the Messianic world there are “Torah Terrorists” as in the church their are “bible thumpers” or “holy rollers” that sadly lumps all together. One bad apple does give a bad name to the whole bunch

      I’m not a personal fan of 119 and do not know who Multria is. However, if Rob is providing a full direct quote in context (something he doesn’t always do) then Multria is DEAD WRONG.

      Although Gal 3:28-29 is true for those in Messiah; there still remain Jews and Gentiles, males and females, prisoners and those freed. The point really is made in 29 we are Abraham’s seed according to the promise IF we are in Messiah and Messiah is in us. The promise is Shaul’s 7 word “gospel message” In you [referring to Abraham] all families will be blessed.

      There have been several from the Nations in our Messianic Synagogue that have been personally convicted to become physically circumcised. Before doing so, we sit and talk with them to understand their WHY behind their WHAT. We fully understand they are already “born again believers in the biblical Yeshua” so it’s NOT a salvation issue. They also understand this doesn’t make them Jewish. Again for each it was a personal conviction.

      I’m elated to learn you have found your Rebekah as I found mine on my last mission trip in 2019 to Uganda.

      Yom naim achi

    2. Mitchell Chapman

      JPL,

      As an afterthought…..There is NO ethnic Jewish person, with or without salvation, which comes ONLY from and through the biblical Yeshua, who believes Torah provides salvation. This has been an extremely errant position taught “in the church” where not a few many secular Jews gravitate to whom are almost exclusively from the Reform branch.

      1. Ric Joyner

        Mitchell I looked you up and see you are pretty deeply into MJ and HBR. Can you source your above statement and explain further? I am highly interested in second temple Judaism thinking/teaching about the Messiah. If the keeping of the Torah did not save why would they create entire books of commentary (Mishnah, talmud, lesser Zohar and others) if not their thinking was indeed that it saved?

        Thanks

        1. Mitchell Chapman

          Ric Joyner, For clarification where did you find me when you looked me up? Also, to answer you properly kindly define MJ and HBR.

          Mishnah and Gemara are part of Talmud; but which one?
          Also, and understanding as to why it was written and didn’t remain oral is the pertinent question.

          Regardless, your question leads me to understand that you have taught/believed (for how long?) that Jewish people keep Torah for salvation.

          1. Ric Joyner

            Here is where I found you. https://www.facebook.com/mitch.chapman.98 Next there is much research on salvation by Torah. In fact, second temple pharisees believed a host of things which they taught to Israel and led them away from the true Messiah. My relationship with Dr. Baruch Korman loveisrael.org comes into play here as well as a wealth of other info on Judaism. Going to Tzaft and learning Jewish history and belief practices was exceedingly helpful. But the key to remaining a Gentile and not practicing Judaism, or in particular rabbinic Judaism that MJ practices (worship order) is voluntary. All those who wish to practice Judaism most certainly may Rom 14 and Col. But when we say that we as Christians are to keep torah means we are in error. We are to keep the Lord’s commands (John 14:15) that He gave to his disciples and gave them the HS in John 20:21ff. Can we learn from the TANAK. Of course. All scriptures are for our edification. BTW another HBR MJ buzz talking point is “The church won’t teach you this”. Of course because they are not Jewish. This would be similar to a German trying to say they are American and knows american culture if they did not grow up in America. But if you would pls go into more detail on the post I was asking about.

  26. JPL

    What is your take on Acts 10, & a voice saying to Peter, “do not call anything impure that God has made clean”?

    What degree of Torah pursuance would need to be followed to achieve acceptance by your fellowship? For example, as a Christian who doesn’t see any NT requirement to keep the kosher laws (per Acts 15), & being just fine eating hot dogs other than Hebrew national beef Franks, not circumcising my male children, cutting my lawn on Saturday, would these things exclude me from fellowship?

    I used to joke with my former wife that she should start her own religion. Looking back I realize it was a lighthearted attempt to deal w/ her Torahist berserkism. I probably should have refrained, but it was just too much, still is. The ultimate & final act of ignominy was her self-righteously accepting the adulterous embrace of an insolent & presumptuous thieving convert to her brand of Torahism as a wannabe messianic jew..

    I’m convinced this false religion of torahism has led to these sinful excesses. She came under the spell of these online false teachers, went down the rabbit hole & never came back.

    It didn’t happen immediately as already mentioned, but gradually became more and more of an obsession. At what point must one relinquish religious obsession so as not to damage relationships? Just so peculiar.

    Perhaps Solberg’s book will offer some clarity. Have you read Torahism: Are Christians Required to Keep the Law of Moses? I’m looking forward to what seems a good read.

  27. Ric Joyner

    Jpl I experienced this same thing as it is a mental takeover of following Judaism. Going to a Messianic synagogue, messiah conference 2014, several south east mjaa conferences, and seeing the strange hypocrisy of not allowing gentiles to be a “rabbi” and even full membership but only associate with the resultant two class system was bizarre. Not only that 90% of MJ are disgruntled church gentiles who are attending mj syns looking and accepting for any shred of proof of “pagan Christianity”. And boy the twisted history will come fast and furious. They are practicing (by their own admission) as you say “judaism wannabes”). Who called us to follow Moses? Without the temple 247 of the 613 laws are not in force. Yet Christ told us to obey His commands (john 14:15) which are the Greek imperatives and by scholars it is 1642! Next was the groups and synagogues were filled with Torah Keeping gentiles!!! Who also were charismatic with a variety of weird doctrines, such as word of faith etc. For example a close friend worked with a young man that berated people at work for eating a ham sandwich based in torah food laws but was having an affair!!! A friend who lives in Israel said the messianic there will live together and will get married when they want to have kids! What? Why don’t they acknowledge they are not following Jesus commands? I think you have said it so well. Btw I had numerous conversations with Joel Chernoff defacto leader of mj on the dramatic inconsistencies to no avail. I also spoke several times to Howard Feintein (I hope that is correct) who was the asoc admin about these same things. Especially the lesser than treatment of gentiles. Howard passed of cancer sadly. No way the MJs can deny that they are practicing rabbinic Judaism but they say “we are saved by Yeshua, but we love Yeshua so we keep torah? (And you Christians don’t even though we see Jesus commands as what He wants us to follow acts 2:42). Is that a false Gospel? Jesus plus Torah? Yes it is false. The very reason He came was to pay the sin debt for the whole world and now I am going to cherry pick keeping Torah? See why this becomes a mental obsession as I almost bit into this nonsense. And your questions are excellent. Ps one last thing. A gentile man I met at the messiah conference was dressed orthodox jewish. I did not know he was not a jew. We found he and his wife’s friendship fun, until he told the story of how he became Jewish. He went to a Chabad syn and told the rabbi he wanted to be jewish. He went through the classes and got what he wanted. He converted to Judaism. However he went back to the rabbi and told the rabbi he still believed in Jesus as messiah. If I remember the rabbi felt betrayed. He should because he was. My heart dropped. I lost so much respect for this man. He lied to become a Jew. And in the MJ syn and Hbr they really like to take the dna tests and want badly to have Jewish blood! I want to follow Christ. I am a mutt of a gentile. And I am glad to serve my creator. I learned in Tzaft Israel that the orthodox don’t believe gentiles have souls! Fortunately the Lord led us to leave. Blessings i have more! Why in the world would we practice Judaism? Lord be with you.

  28. JPL

    Much appreciate these additional perspectives.

    I might have gone along w/ this torahist & wannabe lunacy had not the Lord spared me. Looking back w/ hindsight, as painful as it was, her leaving was a deliverance of sorts.

    She got furious w/ me one Saturday when I indicated I would attend her MH fellowship. I realized later I was spoiling a date w/ her illicit lover & their relationship centered around their torahist & related delusions.

    Might have been living in adultery, but at least they ate kosher, wore tzit tzit, & used smatterings of Hebrew interspersed throughout their religious lingo. If it weren’t so pathetic, it would be rather humorous.

    I pray for her deliverance & thank God for removing this potential source of spiritual, religious bondage in my life.

    As previously mentioned, casting out the bondwoman & son has taken on significance & helped me to look to the Lord for healing. Abraham was grieved to send Hagar away, but he obeyed, Hagar survived, & the Muslims today still commemorate her ordeal & they call the well zamzam. I’ve had water from there from a friend who went on hajj, seemed just like other water though supposed to have special qualities

  29. Ric Joyner

    I can see it. BTW Mitchell mentioned it is a renewed covenant. This is misreading of the hebrew or greek and is also a HBR or MJ talking point. Mainly TKs are the ones who talk with talking points. It actually gets tiring to hear them. Mitchell is part of MJ (messianic judaism) but largely are opposed to hebrew roots and many Rabbis are opposed to Hebrew roots movement and even have a paper against it. Here is an entire article against HBR from MJ. I was able to read this paper given to me by a rabbi on the list (I will leave him nameless) and offered several editing comments that weren’t received as it was finished and about to be published. It needed work for clarity but I have no idea what revision they are on. https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.cloversites.com/8a/8a6bd14a-1a05-4f26-8dc1-b355631ec972/documents/One_Law_Two_Sticks.pdf What I found so odd is that MJ is full of gentiles who are opposed to the church (many hurt in the church or just disgusted with it) and are Torah Keepers. This is where I learned about Torah Keeping vs MJ. There are many many problems in MJ with doctrines not very well spelled out and I am surprised that Mitchell is both professing that we need to keep Torah but says virtually nothing on the Greek Imperatives of Christ, the law of Christ, we are both Jew and Gentile together in Christ. But as you rightly said trying to keep Torah is impossible and even the Chabad or Orthodox in Israel don’t try and will tell people the same thing according to Dr. Baruch Korman. Save this website for resources and info on the terrible misreading of scripture to say the Torah is a renewed covenant. Makes no sense: https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/hebrew-roots-movement-new-covenant-or-renewed-covenant/ you can look us up on biblestudycompany.com if you want to connect.

  30. Ric Joyner

    What is faith? Why did the Jews have such major problems with Christ? They had two kinds of law. The Law (TORAH, Instruction, Commandments) in the first five books of the Bible. Is faith being obedient to God’s law? Does not appear so. Adam and Eve were made sinners not because they disobeyed God’s clear instructions but because they did NOT believe God’s explicit instructions. Satan leveraged this and deceived Eve but Adam willfully sinned. This is why the Seed to come did not come through men (males) but through women.

    They were sinless and perfect. They had fellowship with God. Therefore only God could fix this because He is the only being sinless that can take on all human sin. (John 3) So in effect, Christ came to fix the problem by DOING GOD’s WILL which Adam should have done and was made to do. We are to learn how to do God’s will too which is in His word. Christ was the same God on Mt Sinai as on Mt Beatitudes. In fact, Exodus 20 and Matthew 5 appear to be parallels! Except when we get the law we need to let it do its work and uncover sin motives. Those are the things that will cause us to doubt God’s words.

    When we get saved do we repent of our sins? Some do. If so, how many sins do we repent from? Are we not cleaning ourselves up before becoming saved? Is this is a work of sorts? Or do we drop to our faces in seeing that a Holy God came in human form and gave up His spirit and died on a terrible cross so that His perfect blood could redeem mankind? Acts 26:18 shows a remarkable scripture of the Lord’s agenda for us Gentiles who had no hope but to join Judaism. We no longer need to join Judaism both Jew and Gentile.

    17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

    Notice the inheritance is for those sanctified by faith in Me! This is wonderful news. The Gospel. It is by FAITH. Not works. Then Christ gave us the Holy Spirit, which puts the law into us. See Jer 31:31 Yep in us. So we are born again from above. And He did all this when you were totally dead in your trespasses. Eph 2:1-FF Nothing you can do will get Him to save you except believe in Him and place your sin on Him BY FAITH. He takes our sin and exchanges His blood (Grace) and now we are SAVED to eternal life, and His perfection is credited to us until we get our new sinless bodies. Now this is love! Everyone can be saved by begging Him to save us and placing our sins on Him by faith. If you have not done so do it now.

    But what happens after you get saved? Paul says we learn to walk by the Spirit, not the flesh. Clue. The flesh is at war with the Spirit. Gal 5:17 and Romans. So, one way the Lord trains us is by having faith in His word to live Holy lives through tough times. Deut 8. We need to see what is in us through stress, and then we can compare our actions against the word of God.

    But another thing will happen. Satan will attack. He attacked the perfect humans to deceive them. How does he attack? Through subtle manipulations. That we need “to perform for God, we need to question God.” We can get angry at God, we can question God and His word etc. Learn how to study the Bible properly. One way satan will use others to steer us away from Christ is through groups and false teaching (twisting) that lead us to keep another country’s laws not meant for us. Can we learn spiritual lessons from the entire Bible…yes. Do we need to do these laws and regulations? No. We are called to follow Christ. I fell for it because my understanding of faith was messed up. I was thinking it was obedience to the Bible. That is how Adam and Eve fell. Right? No. They failed to have faith in God and His words. Their disbelief is what caused their action of disobedience. Remember, Christ said it is not what goes into a man but what comes out.

    Whatever is not of faith is a sin. Disobedience is not here. That is a result of a lack of belief and trust in God. We see many Gentiles in the Gospels come to Christ for help, and they have the most faith. The woman from Tyre and the Centurian etc. The Jews had little. Why? Could it be their teachers of the law? Christ made a stunning comment to the Jews: Listen to what the Pharisees say when sitting in the seat of Moses (the actual word of God) and forget what they say in their lives (oral manmade Torah).

    But what happens? Our flesh goes after the “to-dos”. Paul had a lot to say about the problem of the Jews and they wanted him dead because he taught a true gospel of faith in Christ alone. No works.

    30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

    The people who pursue the law and preach that we love Jesus and keep the Torah are actually doing the above. They will need to ask the Lord for help. But I have seen remarkable changes in my own life to honor God and have His help when I stopped performing and had faith in His word which is His will.

    May the Lord be with you all in this struggle that Prof Solberg is laying out. Become born again from heaven today! Let the Lord fulfill the new covenant in you.

  31. Mitch Chapman

    To my brothers in Yeshua, Rick and Rob,

    Why it is you guys continue to make an argument out of thin air? Nowhere is it taught that one earns salvation or keeps salvation by being Torah pursuant, keeping, observing, obedient EXCEPT in the “WESTERN CHRISTIAN CHURCH”

    We’re you not as Shaul described in Ephesuans 2:11-12? Are you now as he states in Galatians 3:28-29? Is Abraham not your father of faith? (Romans 4:9-13) Were you not grafted in as he explains in Roman’s 11:17, 24?

    Let’s go further back were you not part of those indicated in Eothersxodus 12:38, who went up with them? Were you not subsequently immersed in the Sea of Reeds and the cloud (1 Cor 10:2, Exodus 14:31)? Did you not receive Torah at Sinai (Ex 19)?

    Are you not mentioned in THIS WEEK’S TORAH PORTION, NITZVAIM specifically in Deuteronomy 29:13(14)-14(15) or are you not part of those indicated in 29:20(11)?

    When will you guys stop kicking against the goads and start teaching Scripture without the seemingly endless anachronistic terminology and denominational definitions sprinkled with your own vein phiiosophy (eisegeises) and revert back to what you were taught to do in Bible College and/or Seminary; using sound hermeneutics principles to rightly divide the word of truth through exegesis?

    In closing this exhortation I ask you both this basic question of logic asked of both the new believers in the Biblical Yeshua as well as the old dogs of faith who are Pastors with huge followings and Theologians, who are Professors, authors and apologists because as Yeshua was I am, an equal opportunity offender 🙂
    Why would Yeshua the Messiah spend His entire earthly ministry teaching people the correct interpretation of Torah if it was all going to become optional and or abolished at his death?

    Shabbat shalom from Kibaale, Rakai District, Uganda

    Mitch Chapman
    Founding Director
    African Messianic Outreach

    1. Ric Joyner

      Mitch,
      When you come in late and put yourself above everyone else that is bizarre. I will discard this as nonsensical. Your kind of like the guy who blusters while coming in late to a party and want to give “his” opinion because he is right and the people roll their eyes and move on. Your website shows you are teaching Africans how to be Jewish and use Jewish practices. Preach the Gospel only. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus our Lord. Yeeks.

  32. Mitch Chapman

    Rick, coming in late?
    Hardly, read grouch the threada and guess who was the late comer? not I

    regarding my website…..where do you come off making that errantly bogus statement?Hardly a newcomer, brother
    please tell me where making disciples via Acts 1:8 always mindful of Rom 1:16 is as you say?

    another typical nonresponsive answer from you as we have been through this previously before you blocked me.

    Similar to no Jew becoming a Christian, those from the znations fo not become Jews. That is unless you too as brother Rob doesn’t understand the cultural context if Galatians 1 carried through the rest of Shaul’s letter. It’s always been and will remain justification (righteousness) by faith alone.

    You are now summarily dismissed to teach another gospel: the gospel of evangelicism which is nowhere in Scripture

    Shabbat shalom brother

  33. Ric Joyner

    Mitch, sorry you made no sense. It was like garbadlygook. Anyway, my comment stands as is.

    1. Mitch Chapman

      Rick,
      Sorry, you were no responsive again.
      This is apparently your MO.

      For clarification, You made a railing accusation against me. and the ministry HaSgem raised me up to lead. I asked you to back up your words.

      Regardless, you are forgiven for you k ow not you do.

  34. Sarah

    Jesus said, if you love me you will obey my commands. What are those commands?
    Since Jesus is God…His commands are all written in the Torah. Jesus and the Father are one. So we obey out of love for God.
    The Torah isn’t a Jewish thing, it’s a God thing.
    He gave his commands to all 12 tribes of Israel. The tribe of Judah (the Jews) was included in that, of course, and they are the only tribe that has guarded the commands all these years.
    But all believers are supposed to guard the commands. When we become believers in God and his son Jesus we are then grafter into Israel.
    We are the foreign branch.. grafted into the olive tree.
    So then now that we are part of Israel we need to uphold our end of the agreement, God said in exodus 19, if you will do all these things, I will be your God. And you will be my people.

    And the Israelites said we will do all that you say!

    So believers should be striving to do all that He wants from us.
    And when we fail to do it, He is faithful to forgive. But we need to actually be trying to do what is right. How do we know what is right? And what is sin?
    Sin is breaking the law.
    We only know what sin is because the law , the Torah says what it is.

    It won’t make sense unless God has “popped your bubble” as rabbi Stephen berksen says.

    Love to all
    Praying for your walk to grow , and your love and obedience to grow as well

    A great book to read about this is
    The harmony between law and grace
    Finding the ancient path
    By Eddie doss

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Hello, Sarah! For those under the law of Moses, breaking that law was sinful, of course. But sin is much bigger than that! In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom. 5:13, see Gen 4:7; 13:13; 18:20; 39:9). So if we merely define sin as a transgression of the Law of Moses, then Adam and Eve never sinned, because they did not break any of the Mosaic commands.

      I teach and believe that obedience is God’s “love language.” Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). And I’m sure you would agree that not every command that God has given applies to every person at all times. Some of His commands only apply to certain people (i.e., men, women, parents, Levitical priests) or for certain times (i.e., building an ark, gathering manna, while in exile). And I’m sure you would also agree that we are each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. The NT teaches that the ceremonial commands given under the Law of the Sinai Covenant do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required (Heb 10:18).) We still serve God and obey His commands, of course, “But now we are released from the law, having died with Christ to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).

      Blessings, RLS

  35. Sarah

    I have a great question – if Jesus declared all foods clean now…. Why is there not even a single story of him or one of his followers eating a lobster, or a shell fish, or a slice of ham?

    Supposedly, the law was changed. So why didn’t he show how he walked freely in that new law? Answere- Jesus never ate anything unclean. None of the apostles did. Cause the law was not changed.

    Not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law until all things are completed. All things are not competed.. Jesus has not come back yet.

    Jesus said himself, I did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. He is the fulfillment not the …..law changer. He can’t change the law because him and the father are one. And for Jesus to be sinless he would have to follow the law perfectly. He was sinless that is how he was the perfect spotless lamb that could cover us for our sin. He was the perfect and final sacrafice, he had to be without sin, he couldn’t break any part of the law or change any of it, or he wouldn’t have been the promised messiah.

    God does nothing without telling the prophets first. If he was going to change the sabbath day, or part of his perfect law, he would have told us through the prophets

    1. R. L. Solberg

      Hi Sarah! Actually, in Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is talking about even more than the Law; it’s about the whole of the Hebrew Scriptures! So here’s the question: Do you believe that none of the Old Covenant commands have passed and they are all still required? For example, are we still obligated to make a blood sacrifice to atone for sin every year? -RLS

  36. Anonymous

    ADONAI held Adam and Eve to the letter of His Law; death and removal from His presence was the consequence That sounds like Judgement Day to me. Patterns throughout Scriptures are supposed to remind humans of that moment in human history; the Creator doesn’t change.

    I think the problem is how humans organize information in their minds to benefit their preferences. We have a hard time perceiving absolutes.

    Best to leave that fruit alone.

  37. Anonymous

    Let me pitch my 5 cents in here… We have been Torah observant for the last 8 years. We were not convinced by any one or in doctrinated. We merely asked the Holy Spirit to show us the truth. Once you realise much the modern day church has comprised and the amount of pagan and occultic practices that was mixed in with Christianity, we were shocked. The more you read and did our OWN research, we realised that modern day Christianity is far from what It is supposed to be. We started reading our bible with open minds, listening to what is said in the word and not what was preached from a pulpit. As an engineer I must be convinced by facts, so I read the new testament with a sheet of paper with two columns on it. One column for the verses that stated the Torah is not applicable, and the other that it still is. You will be surprised when you see how many times it states that the Torah is still applicable. The biggest obsticle when I found is that most translations do not differentiate between God’s law (Torah) and the man made laws (Talmud). Once you read a translation like ‘The Scriptures’ that makes that clear distinction, you get a much better understanding. Unfortunately most english translations do not differentiate between the two and throws it into the same camp, which is very misleading.
    Once you realise that Gods Torah (instructions) was given to all 12 tribes and not just the Jews, you realise it was given to all his people. Also, when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven onto earth, there is 12 gates to enter and none is labeled ‘christian’, ‘new church’ or Gentile…. Once you realis we are grafted into God’s people, it starts hitting home. We observe the Torah out of obedience and greatfullnes of what Yeshua did for us on the cross. Our salvation is not dependent on it, but where we fall short is where grace comes in. We are commanded to walk as He walked, and he was Torah observant.

  38. Mitch Chapman

    Anonymous,
    What a wonderful testimony indicating the book’s title: “They Thought For Themselves: Ten Amazing Jews”.

    One of the most overlooked Scriptures in the Bible is Exodus 12:37-38.

    12:37 is the children of Jacob aka Israel (Jews)
    12:38 is the mixed multitude, under Pharaoh’s rule, from other conquered lands, now living in Egypt (Gentiles)

    The mixed multitude went up with WHO?
    To go WHERE?
    To receive WHAT?
    WHEN?
    WHY?

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