(Edited 9/4/23) There is a theological movement called Torahism—you might know it as Torah-observant Christianity or the Hebrew Roots Movement. Torahism1 teaches that all Christians should be “keeping Torah,” by which they mean we should be keeping the Law of Moses (aka the “Old Testament law”). The New Testament teaches that keeping these Mosaic traditions are permitted for Christians, but they are not required. So naturally, people have asked why I spend so much time mounting arguments against this lesser-known belief system.
What’s the big deal with the Hebrew Roots Movement and other groups that want to practice some Old Testament traditions? Don’t you say all the time that those things are “permitted but not required?” How is it hurting anyone if some Christians want to keep the Saturday Sabbath, celebrate Passover, or not eat pork?
These are fair questions. Although the motivation behind Torahism may include some noble ambitions—such as wanting to better understand the Christian faith in its original cultural context and wanting to do our best to live in obedience to God—the theology itself contains some dangerous ideas. Let me share with you some real stories about how these teachings can affect families, friendships, and even churches as we examine what I see as the three biggest dangers of this belief system.
1 “Torahism” is an umbrella term for Torah-observant Christianity but not necessarily what they call themselves. The term is in no way intended in a derogatory sense. It is merely a convention for describing a belief system and its adherents. When I refer to someone as a “Torahist,” it is no different than referring to them as a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
Salvation v. Obedience
Before we get to the reasons and the stories, it’s important to clarify what Torahism is and isn’t. The defining element in the theology of Torahism is the teaching that the Torah—by which they mean the Law of Moses—must be kept by all who profess faith in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile. A small minority of Torahists openly teach that “keeping Torah” is a matter of salvation. Most, however, agree with mainstream Christianity that salvation comes only through grace by faith in Jesus (Eph 2:8-9). They believe that “keeping Torah” isn’t what saves us but is how we show our love for God. It is the way we are commanded to live our lives as Christians. In other words, they view Torah-keeping as a matter of obedience, not salvation.
But here’s the catch. All Torahists—even those who profess salvation through Christ alone—teach that not keeping Torah is sinful. They view disobedience of the Law of Moses (such as not observing Saturday Sabbath, kosher food laws, annual feasts, circumcision, etc.) as living in sin and lawlessness. And there are even some Hebrew Roots teachers, such as Steve Moutria of Torah Family, who teaches that “walking in obedience to the Torah keeps you in your salvation.” So despite the claim that keeping the Mosaic Law is not a requirement for salvation, Torahism considers it, at a minimum, a sign of an obedient Christian, and in some cases, a direct issue of salvation.
Anyone who teaches that believers in Jesus are required to keep the Mosaic Law—whether as a matter of salvation or obedience—is teaching Torahism. With that, let’s move on to the three most significant dangers of this belief system.
1. Torahism is Unbiblical
Despite what these groups teach, the Bible does not support a Hebrew Roots worldview. We will look at a few specific examples of this below. (And I have many videos, blogs, and books that go into greater detail on the issue.) That said, there is a challenge in recognizing and resisting Torahism’s theology. If a Christian group were to teach, for example, that adultery or greed was okay, we could point to numerous verses in the Bible that directly contradict their teachings. In the case of Torahism, however, there is no single verse that specifically says, “Christians are not required to keep Torah.” At the same, no verse says explicitly, “Christians are required to keep Torah.”
The relationship of Christians to the Law of Moses is something that we have to dig into Scripture to understand. God wants us to eat His Word, to ingest it every day because through reading His Word, we get to know His heart. It’s about having a real relationship with our heavenly Father. And His Word—the Bible—is how He most often speaks to us. But God doesn’t always give us a nice, tidy list of directions and instructions. I don’t know about you, but I’m a list guy. (Ask my wife!) If God gave me a to-do list, I would be off to the races working on the list and forgetting all about spending time with God. Instead, our heavenly Father wants us to pull up a chair and sit with Him daily. He wants us to spend time with Him, so He can feed us His truth.
The more we get to know the truth of the Word, the easier it is to spot counterfeit teachings. This is what we find in many of the claims of our Hebrew Roots friends. These teachers claim Torahism is biblical, and I’m sure many of them believe it. But the proof is in the pudding. And at the end of the day, the Bible teaches that Christians are not required to keep the Law of Moses, not as a matter of salvation or righteousness. Let’s look at the Scriptural data.
In Exodus 19 and following, we learn that the Law of Moses was given as part of the Covenant at Mount Sinai. It was given to “the house of Jacob” (Ex 19:3). In Scripture, the phrase “the house of” is a way of referring to the family or physical descendants of someone. So even though there may have been a “mixed multitude” (Ex 12:38) traveling with Israel when they were rescued out of Egypt, the covenant God made at Mount Sinai was solely with the “house” or descendants of Jacob, who was also named Israel (Gen 32:28). These were the Jews. No other nation or people group was part of the covenant. In fact, many of the Mosaic laws were given specifically to set the Jewish people apart from the Gentile nations around them. God uniquely chose the Israelites, telling them “you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation ” (Exodus 19:5).
The New Testament later reveals that under Jesus and the New Covenant, things changed. For one thing, it was revealed that the Law of Moses was given as a guardian until Christ came. And now that He has come, God’s people are no longer under that Law (Gal 3:24-25). It’s also revealed that the nature of the People of God has changed. Under the Sinai covenant, the People of God were the Jews (aka the nation of Israel, the House of Jacob). They were designated through ethnicity and lineage. Under the New Covenant, however:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”
-Galatians 3:28-29
That’s right. Believers in Jesus—both Jews and Gentiles—are now considered Abraham’s offspring and the heirs of God’s promises. (I’ll unpack this a bit more below. But spoiler alert: this has nothing to do with the erroneous concept of “replacement theology,” which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel.) And since Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ are now one people, the laws previously given to set Israel apart from the Gentiles are no longer needed.
2. Torahism is Divisive
The second big danger is that Torahism often causes division in the body of Christ. I’ve seen it damage marriages, friendships, families, and even churches. Torah-observant Christians often make keeping the Law of Moses a test of fellowship. Because they view these Mosaic traditions as required of Christians, not optional, they often look down on Christians who don’t keep the Saturday Sabbath or the kosher food laws or celebrate Easter or Christmas. Those Christians are often reprimanded as lawless sinners. Not every Torah-keeper adopts a divisive or arrogant attitude, of course. But if you’ve got a Hebrew Roots person in your life, you know what I’m talking about.
Although many Hebrew Roots believers profess with their lips that salvation comes through faith in Christ alone, I’ve yet to come across any Torah-keeper willing to take the peacemaking attitude that says, “Hey, we can agree to disagree on this issue and still be brothers and sisters in Christ.” The majority of Torah-observant Christians I have interacted with take a prideful and judgmental attitude toward Christians who don’t “keep Torah.” In fact, that’s how I stumbled across this movement in the first place. A few years back, an old friend from church began publicly accusing me of partaking in pagan rituals. Why? Because I celebrate Christmas. (The conversation that grew out of that encounter eventually turned into my book, Torahism.)
To be fair, no belief system, including Torahism, should be judged by those who abuse it. There are no Torah-observant tenets that require its adherents to cause division in their families and communities. But there is a virulent strain of distrust—sometimes even outright rebellion—against the mainstream Christian church in many Torah-observant communities. Romans 14 addresses the in-fighting in the Roman church on the issue of kosher food. Paul admonished his readers that “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit . . . so then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding” (Rom 14:17, 19). And when we look at the common fruits of Torahism, we find the opposite of what Paul taught. Rather than peace and mutual upbuilding, Torahism tends to cause disunity in the body of Christ. And it has done needless damage to families, friendships, and churches.
Often the average Christian senses something is wrong with the idea of Torah-observant Christianity but has a hard time articulating exactly why it’s wrong. So the mainstream Christian and the Torah-observant Christian end up talking past one another, quarreling and arguing without any resolution. The old friend I mentioned who took me to task over Christmas is a perfect example. He and his wife were causing so much turmoil in their family and neighborhood that the people who loved them were at their wit’s end and didn’t know what to do.
In another instance, a woman from Minneapolis reached out to me because her husband has been thinking about leaving the family to move to Israel. He believes it is part of his duty as a believer to make the three annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem required in the Torah. I sat with him for almost two hours and found him to be a soft-spoken, intelligent man who knows his Bible. But he was unwilling or unable to see that those Mosaic traditions are not required of Christians under the New Covenant. I remember him being really upset that he was being “forced” by mainstream Christianity to worship God on Sunday rather than the true Saturday Sabbath.
And interestingly, like every Hebrew Roots believer I’ve ever encountered, he is not Jewish. He is a Gentile, which means he has never been under the Law of Moses, including the Sabbath requirements. And here he is, ready to walk away from his wife and kids in service to Torahism. That’s scary stuff.
But that’s not all. Let me share a few other stories with you. These are actual comments I’ve received:
- A man from Kansas wrote, “Thank you so much for your biblical and logical teaching in your book and on YouTube. With one of my best friends falling into the Hebrew Roots Movement (I partially blame 119 Ministries), I have been struggling to find answers to the questions he raises.” This man later told me that this friend ended up causing so much disruption and arguing within their church small group that they finally had to ask him to leave. (Which he wanted to do anyway because he thought they were all deceived.)
- A man from Tennessee wrote, “I like your videos. My son married a girl recently that her family had been strongly involved in the Hebrew Roots Movement. So, I am researching for myself. I do not believe in the movement myself, nor does my son but, we have to get along with the in-laws. They are starting to come out of it but cling to some of the food laws and feast ideas.”
- A pastor from Connecticut wrote: “My elder brother just sent me this link [to a Hebrew Roots article]. Is this what your book on Torahism is about and do you deal with this subject? I want to learn more just in case my brother is going down a wrong path. By the way, I’ve been a pastor for over 32 years and have an M.Div . . . Please, any help you can offer is greatly appreciated.”
- A woman from Mexico wrote, “I’ve recently come across this movement you mentioned in your book. I’ve dealt with harsh comments and teachings towards Christians… I’ve been a Baptist all my life, and I am concerned about this situation . . . My husband isn’t a Christian, yet; he’s friends with a gentleman who is involved in Hebrew Roots, they’ve known each other even longer than my husband and I have. I’d love to get your book. Is it available from Mexico?”
- An author from Spain wrote, “I just recently bought and read your book Torahism (great job, BTW). I would be interested in chatting with you about the Hebrew Roots Movement. We have this problem in Spain, too.” He and I ended up having a video chat, and he explained to me how the Hebrew Roots teachings are growing, especially among the Gypsy population in Spain, who identify themselves with the lost tribes of Israel. He told me that four prominent Christian leaders in Spain had recently stepped down from their positions in the church to pursue Torahism.
(You’ll find more examples in the comments section below.)
Torahism is real, and it seems to be growing. Thankfully it’s nowhere near as big as other Christian cults, like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormonism. At least not yet. And one of the reasons I do what I do is to help make sure Torahism never gets that big.
3. Torahism Undermines Jesus
The third big danger is that the theological concept at the foundation of Torahism undermines both the Gospel of Jesus and the sufficiency of His work in making us right with God. For one thing, by trying to point Christians toward Moses, these teachings can take our focus off of Jesus. By emphasizing a works-based lifestyle, Hebrew Roots’ teachings deemphasize the “abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness” (Rom 5:17) that is ours through Jesus. But the danger of Torahism is even bigger than what it does to our focus.
The theology of Torahism contradicts and undermines the accomplishments of Jesus through His life, death, and resurrection. Here are seven biblical examples that show how the teachings of Torahism are incompatible with the work of Jesus:
| Under the Law of Moses / Old Covenant | Under Jesus / New Covenant |
| Continual animal sacrifices are required for sin. (Ex 29:10-14, 35-37, 30:10; Lev 4:1-5:13; Num 6:10-14) | We learn “it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Heb 10:4). They were only a reminder of sin. Jesus, however, was our atoning sacrifice (1 John 2:1), which was given once for all (Heb 10:10). If Jesus was our sacrifice once for all, why would we need to continue with the repeated sacrifices required under the Law of Moses? |
| All priests must come from the tribe of Levi. (Ex 29:1-8; Deut 18:1-8; Num 18) | Jesus is now our High Priest (Heb 4:14-15), and he came from the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14), not Levi. We’re further taught that “when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well” (Heb 7:12). How can the Law of Moses still be in effect if our high priest is not from the tribe of Levi? |
| God told the Jewish nation of Israel, “you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex 19:6) | All believers in Jesus—whether Jew or Gentile—are described as “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession” (1 Peter 2:9) Contrary to the Law of Moses, every believer in Jesus—whether Jew or Gentile—now qualifies as a member of God’s chosen people. |
| God’s presence or spirit resides in the temple in the most holy place, behind a veil where only the high priest can enter once a year (Exodus 26, 30:10) | The moment Jesus died on the cross, God tore down that temple veil, symbolizing that we now have direct access to God (Matt 27:51; Mark 15:38). We, the body of Christ, are now God’s temple (1 Cor 316-17, 6:14-20; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Pet 2:5). If believers in Jesus are now the temple of God’s spirit, how does it make sense to keep a Law that requires a physical Temple where the most holy place is veiled off and only accessible by priests? Are we to sew back together the temple veil that God ripped apart? |
| Kosher food laws were given to set Israel apart from the Gentile nations around her (Leviticus 11). A person is defiled by what goes into their mouth (Lev 11:44-45). | “Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)” (Mark 7:18b-19). All food is now clean. (Acts 10:9-16, Mark 7:1-23, Rom 11:11-24, 14:1-15:13). How does it make sense to require the keeping of kosher food regulations when Jesus and the apostles taught us that all food is clean? |
| Israel was required to circumcise all males at eight days old. (Lev 12:3). | “If you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you” (Gal 5:2b). For those who place their faith in Jesus, “neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5:6. See also: Acts 15:1-29; Gal 6:15; 1 Cor 7:19; Col 2:11) How does it make sense for Christians to keep the Mosaic requirements for circumcision when the NT tells us that now, under Jesus, circumcision counts for nothing? |
| No commandments shall be added to or taken away from the Law of Moses. (Deut 4:2, 12:32) | Jesus gave us new commands not found in the Torah (Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; John 13:34). For example, nowhere in the Torah will we find anything like this command: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I (Jesus) have commanded you” (Matt 28:19-20). If the Law of Moses is still in effect, how could Jesus give us new commandments? |
I mentioned earlier that we don’t have a verse we can look at that directly teaches that “Christians are not required to keep the law of Moses.” However, you can see how the bulk of evidence in the NT teaches this very point. Not only that, we have a verse we can point to that reveals that the Sinai Covenant, the old covenant, has ended. The book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus is our High Priest and that the New Covenant is a better covenant. And, “In speaking of a new covenant, [God] makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13).
This text was written in the first century when most of the apostles were still alive. And a few years later, in the year AD 70, the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. From that day until now, it has been impossible for anyone to live a truly Torah-observant lifestyle. The temple is gone, the priesthood is gone, the sacrifices have ended. In other words, the old covenant has become obsolete and vanished.
Lastly, adherents of Torahism also often contradict Jesus’ commands to share His Good News with a lost world. It is a mission commissioned by Jesus Himself (Matt. 28:19–20), which His apostles carried out to their death. Look at what the apostle Paul endured to share the Gospel with unbelievers!
Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
2 Corinthians 11:23–27
Sadly, what we find in most (not all!) “Torah-observant” Christian communities is the opposite of this. They tend to be insular and inward-focused in the living out of their faith. Granted, this is not something Torahism expressly teaches or a tenet of their faith. But it is an all-too-common social dynamic that develops among communities of “Torah-observant” Christians. And when they do look outward, their primary mission field is almost always the Christian church. Rather than spreading the Gospel of Jesus to those who need to know Him, most (not all) spend their time spreading the gospel of Torahism to people who already follow Jesus.
Wrap it Up, Solberg
Look, I get it. This idea that Christians ought to keep the Law of Moses can sound appealing, even beautiful. It seeks to connect us to our spiritual roots in ancient Israel and give us a framework to live out our faith today. This is what draws people into Torahism. But the bottom line is that Torah-observant Christianity is flat-out unbiblical. And anyone who spreads this false teaching is well advised to soberly reconsider what they’re doing. There are many ways to acknowledge and honor the true Jewish roots of the Christian faith without resorting to unbiblical teachings.
The three biggest dangers of Torahism are that their teachings (1.) are unbiblical, (2.) cause division and disunity, and (3.) undermine the work and sufficiency of Jesus. These false Hebrew Roots teachings put an unnecessary burden on believers. They add requirements to living out the Christian faith that were never intended. This is a dangerous stumbling block that promotes the false idea that putting one’s faith in Jesus commits them to keeping all sorts of regulations—about food and days and so on—that aren’t actually required of Christians.
In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul spends chapters three and four making his case that believers in Jesus have been liberated from the law. I’ll close with his summary of that argument: “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal 5:1).
Shalom
Marc W. Richardson
Acts chapter 11, God specifically abrogates the dietary laws. Acts chapter 15, the (Jewish) Apostles, circumcision is done away with as a requirement for gentile believers. See esp. v5 and v9. Our hearts are purified by faith, not the keeping of the law. The summary of the Council of Jerusalem is found in vv19-20.
Kris
Without Torah is it possible to have Sin?
R. L. Solberg
Hi Kris. Adam and Eve did not have the Torah, and they sinned. Same with Cain. The Bible says that sin came into the world through Adam (Rom 5:12), and he lived long before the law of Moses was given.
Shalom, RLS
Casey
But if that was the case why was Abel’s sacrifice righteous and Cain’s wasn’t?
y1tzhak
Cain’s sacrifices were insufficient. G-d said the land was “cursed” in Genesis 3:17 to Adam and Eve “land is cursed because of you.” Abel brought animal sacrifices that were of the first born, like the Israelites were instructed to do in Exodus.
Anonymous
There is so much wrong here and so much to comment on. So, some basics. The word “Torah” means “Instruction.” Adam started with a one command Torah, “Do not eat…” To that Torah, Adam added “Do not touch…” Enter the Serpent! The question comes from the Serpent “Did ‘God’ really say…” The Woman relays what she was told. Adam is “with” her. The Hebrew is “elbow to elbow.” Woman then “sees” the fruit is good. The only way this can happen is if the Serpent touches and eats it. Seeing this, she is deceived and touches it (nothing happens) and eats. Adam seeing this, also takes and eats. Adding to… or taking away from the Word of God has always been the cause of deception, sin, and death.
After “The Fall,” God’s “Torah” (Instructions) to Adam were clearly expanded. King David confirms this in 2 Samuel 7:19. This is correctly translated in English as: “And yet this was a small thing in Your sight, O Lord GOD; and You have also spoken of Your servant’s house [David’s house] for a great while to come. For this the Torah of Adam, O Lord GOD.” Rabbis have no idea what this means and they have noted it in their texts. They hold that the “Torah” was first given to them. Really? Then why are Cain and Abel sacrificing? Why is Abel accepted and Cain rejected? The Torah of Moses will tell you! One was a blood sacrifice and one was a grain offering. Where did these two boy’s learn this? Humm?
Then we have Job. This is the oldest book of Scripture and likely predates Abraham. Job is righteous! He is sacrificing for himself and his children. He is keeping Feasts to God! Where did he learn this? Job tells us. “Receive, please, Torah from His mouth, and lay up His words in your heart.” (Job 22:22). Oops! Job had the Torah and was following it!
The we have Abraham. God’s man! Abraham kept God’s Torah! “because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Torah (laws?).” (Genesis 26:5) The Hebrew word for “Law” is “Choq.” The Hebrew here is “Torah.” Oops again! Well, now we know why Abraham was righteous.
The Torah is not something that was kept only by Israel, nor was it first given to Moses. Adam was the first man to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath. Moses just called Israel back to it! But why?
The answer is so simple it is staggering. The two great commands are “To love God with all our heart mind and soul” and “To love our neighbor as ourselves.” ALL the Torah and the Prophets “HANG” off of these two. The Ten Commandments evidence this. The first four are towards God and the last six are towards man. They “HANG” off of the two great commands… and so does every other command.
The Torah is God’s standards of love. How are we to express our love for God? How are we to express our love for others? The Torah is God’s standards of love. It is that simple! The Torah was never intended to save anyone. That is the ERROR! Keeping the Torah is not “Judaising.” Judaising is adding to or taking away from God’s Torah with mens traditions. This is what was opposed by Jesus and set Him up against the Leaders of the People. His disciples ate with unwashed hands… they picked grain to eat on the Sabbath… He healed on the Sabbath. None of these things are banned in the Torah. They were all added and they took away from the Torah.
Keeping God’s Torah is FIRST to expresses a genuine belief in the God of Adam, Job, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob… because they are His instructions not anyone else’s… and they have little to do with what I think or want. They are not my personal standards based on my desires or what I think or want. SECOND, they are only kept as an expression of love for God BECAUSE you believe you are saved… not to be saved.
When Jesus said, “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and the Scribs, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” what was He saying? These are the guys who tithed 1/10 of the smallest of their spices (mint, cumin, dill) and they are the guys who added and took away from the Torah! This is why Jesus warned people not to do as they were doing. Adam added to his one command “Torah.” With the best of intentions he added, “Do not touch!” He meant well, but he did trust that what God said was enough. It was! It is still enough.
“My covenant I will not break, nor will I alter the word that has gone out of My lips.” (Ps 89:34)
This is all a person really needs to understand. And, Yes… God really did say… read it for yourself IN CONTEXT. Then do not just hear it… DO it.
ALL SIN is a failure to love according to God’s standards. God’s standards are in His Instructions (Torah)… Adam had them!
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, Anonymous! While it’s certainly true that תּוֹרָה means “direction, instruction” it is also a term regularly used to describe (a.) the first five books of the Bible and (b.) the Law of Moses. So it’s important to read torah in context and not simply apply it everywhere. For example, torah is not used of God’s command of Adam. Rather, Gen 2:16 says “The Lord God commanded (צוה, tsivah) the man…”
We shouldn’t conflate God’s instructions under which Adam, Abraham, Job, and others were operating with the set of instructions that Yahweh gave to Israel at Mount Sinai. Unlike the commands of Yahweh that preceded Sinai, the Law of Moses expressly served as the terms of the sign of the Sinai Covenant. If Israel kept those laws they would keep the covenant, if they broke those laws they would break the covenant. So “God’s Torah” (to use your term) and the “Law of Moses” are not the same thing.
I teach and believe that obedience is God’s “love language.” Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). And I’m sure you would agree that not every command that God has given applies to every person at all times. Some of His commands only apply to certain people (i.e., men, women, parents, Levitical priests) or for certain times (i.e., building an ark, gathering manna, while in exile). And I’m sure you would also agree that we are each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. The NT teaches that the ceremonial commands given under the Law of the Sinai Covenant do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required (Heb 10:18).) We still serve God and obey His commands, “But now we are released from the law, having died with Christ to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).
Shalom! Rob
Ric Joyner
Kris, something you may want to do research on for yourself. (Away from Torah teachers) Jesus Christ our Lord, said in John 14:15 that “if you love me you will obey my commands”. What are these commands? Are they the Torah? But how does the Lord Jesus add gentiles into salvation when they do not live in Israel? Jesus gave everyone who believes in Him as Messiah the Holy Spirit Jew and Gentile eph 2-4 and by faith we died to the Law of Moses that defined sin. Rhe law has no bearing on a dead man. See Romans 4-7. The Holy Spirit will define and show our heart motive that causes us sin. But through the Apostles they are tasked to teach us all Jesus said. See John 21 and Acts 2:42. They are the new “moses” taught directly by the Word of God (john 1) Now here is the kicker. Jesus and the Apostles gave us 1642 Greek imperatives which are commands. You can find them at preceptaustin.org section 8. You will spend the rest of your life studying those as a disciple of Christ. Those are “torah” for disciples of Jesus Christ because Torah are instructions. Follow Jesus Christ. And His commands The Lord bless you.
Kris
Brethren I am having a difficult time finding section 8 may you offer better direction so I can find what you are sharing?
Ric Joyner
Kris scroll down to section 8: https://www.preceptaustin.org/greek_quick_reference_guide
Anonymous
Without Torah, there is no such thing as sin, for sin as defined in Scripture as “transgression of the law.”
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 Jn 3:4
Without Torah, there is no law to transgress, therefore no one sins, therefore no one needs to repent, therefore no one needs Jesus as their Savior.
R. L. Solberg
Hello, Anonymous. For those under the law of Moses, breaking that law was sinful, of course. But sin is much bigger than that! In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom. 5:13, see Gen 4:7; 13:13; 18:20; 39:9). So if we merely define sin as a transgression of the Law of Moses, then Adam and Eve never sinned, because they did not break any of the Mosaic commands.
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Marc, outstanding! Well said
Anonymous
Hello. Before I was born again, I was disobedient. Afterwards the Lord put this scripture on my heart, Matthew 7:21-23. Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven but He who does the will of my Father in Heaven ( what has been Gods will since the beginning, keep my commands and live). Many (not a few) will say to Him in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness!’ (Literally torahlessness)
Jesus is telling these who practice their religion without the law of God that they will not be recognized by Him. The commandments are not the law of Moses, they were the words of God, written by the finger of God, set in stone. The law of Moses is the ceremonial,sacrificial atonement laws before Christ came to be our atonement.Jeremiah says the new covenant will include God writing His laws on our hearts and minds. Keeping the commandments keeps us in the love of God. Jesus says that He loves His Father and keeps His Fathers commandments and abides in His Fathers love. The commandments do not save us but they are salvational and they are good for the converting of the soul (psalms19:7) Also in revelation 12 and rev14, it tells us that the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony or Faith of Jesus Christ. King David said, “all Your commandments are righteousness.” Jesus says blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness and blessed are you if they persecute you for righteousness sake. God bless you.
Ric Joyner
I think your hermeneutic is wrong aka context and application. “I never knew you” is explained in John 3 discussion with nicodemus. One must be born from heaven. Not keeping the law of Moses as no one could. But He can in us and it does not mean following Judaism it means following Christ and His commands. But this has been explained on here over and over. When we are born from heaven the Holy Spirit of God is in us and puts the law within us. jer 31. There is nothing in this passage that points us to the law of Moses as the “knowing”. In fact Romans 9:30-ff shows that keeping the law without faith and guidance by the Holy Spirit is not faith. And anything not of faith is sin rom 14. We obey the call of the Holy Spirit and God’s new Apostles for guidance.
Anonymous
The Great Commission in the Old Testament
Psa 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.
Aaron
I’m just going to ask you five things. Do you know what the Talmud is? If not then that’s the oral traditions brought over from Babylon that Nehemiah helped to institute and the Jews kept adding onto it and haven’t truly followed the ways of the Torah since; they’ve followed a way that makes it impossible to obey the ways of the Torah.
Second, have you actually studied who the Apostle Paul was teaching the entire to truth to? 90-99% were pagans that had never ever read the original scriptures before hence they’d have been doing the pagan festivals and new moon celebrations that were part of their traditions that the modern church participates in to this day. I’ve done some research on this and encourage anyone attacking this movement which is prophesied to happen in Deuteronomy, the prophets, and Psalms to study out what Easter and Christmas really are. Not attacking here just challenging to verify if you really believe the entire Bible or if you made up a New Testament God because you don’t like the Old Testament one.
Third; who does the Apostle Paul say the converts become once accepting Messiah Yeshua/Jesus? Israelites was what he called them; Christian didn’t become official until Constantine made it so and killed off the true church/congregation as much as he could. History will bear this out look up the councils of Nicea and Laodicea and the rest of the history of the early church, look up Polycarp and study him.
Fourth; how many tribes of Israel were there at Mount Sinai and were there ”foreigners”, like maybe a mixed multitude, there accepting the covenant with them?
Five: How long does God say His feast days and statutes last? You’ll have to read the Old Testament for this one and in detail.
You see I know there are overzealous Torah observant followers and I know people like you who don’t have the truth in you and just want to attack them are going to continue to pop up; I’m cool with that because the Word says it will happen. The truth is people waking up to the entire Bible freak out and see the truth and see the lies the church us perpetrated on them and make a total 180 change back to the ways of God. We know the Torah doesn’t get us through the door but if you read Paul’s letters in context, understand history, and take the racism the church has injected into the front of their Bibles and remove it you will see the truth. I read you article and I agree there are crazy Torah followers but there’s also the ones who understand scripture and have their eyes opened to the Truth and simply follow the Word as written including listening and obeying the Prophet like Moses who was/us Yeshua/Jesus the of Nazareth. I grew up in a Baptist church then swapped to the Pentecostal church and actually read my Bible and study history with it; if you ever want to have a discussion about this I’ll gladly have one.
R. L. Solberg
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Aaron! I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I agree with you that there are overzealous Torah-observant Christians and there are others who are more reasonable about it. But no matter where a Christ-follower lands on the Torah-observant spectrum, if believe they are required to keep Torah, they are missing the mark. Let me take a stab at answering your five questions:
I have another question for you. What do you mean by “the racism the church has injected into the front of their Bibles”? Also, BTW, you might enjoy my book Divergence: Examining Jewish-Christian Relations in the Early Church. In it, I take a scholarly look at the theology of the Christian church across the first three centuries of the faith. And one of the issues I examine is anti-Semitism in the early church. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it!
Shalom,
Rob
Anonymous
Yeshua did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, He came to fulfill it. Salvation is a divine act, consecration is a human endeavor through the Ruach haKodesh who sanctifies us, convicts us, and leads us in truth to live in holiness, apart from the heathens, so that we don’t stray away from Hashem’s Word. His Law is pure, His commandments give life. There is absolutely no difference nowadays between so-called “Christians” and heathens. You wear the same clothes, you speak the same way, listen to the same music, eat the same foods, entertain the same vane thoughts, full of tattoos, and so many other things. This is not how Hashem wants us to live. If you are saved, then you should live accordingly, otherwise there is no difference, and His love does not abide in you. Our body is the temple of the Ruach haKodesh. Hashem’s Word does not change, and the Scriptures are filled with Hashem’s commandments from beginning to end, the first one being, “Let there be Light.” We are to live in the Light and not darkness. Hashem’s Law is a light unto our path, a lamp unto our feet. And if we are listening to the Ruach haKodesh, the Torah continually brings us to the knowledge that we are insufficient on our own, and salvation is only through the blood of Yeshua. All praise be to Adonai!
Ric Joyner
Anonymous, how did Jesus fulfill the law and the prophets?
Liah
The messiah fulfilled the law with love, LOVE G-D THE ABBA with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself, because when we love we dont fornicate, kill, rob, covet, fornicate, Ecc. the LAW is LOVE!
ArnoldF
Anon: your words are filled with judgment, rank dogmatism and spirit of disunity (something Jesus clearly prayed for and demanded of his disciples in John 17). I think this says an awful lot about the content of your argument.
Ric Joyner
Liah, I can see you are in the HRM camp when you use rabbinic Judaism (G-d, L-rd) because the Spirit of the law of taking His name in vain has many layers. But changing a vowel as Judaism does is an outward practice. But people will take the Lord’s name in vain even in here by saying He Who died for our sin and gave us the Holy Spirit by putting the law and Himself in us, we need now also to follow Moses. We can follow Moses TO Christ. Christ said follow Him which meant to follow His teaching through Him and the apostles. Acts 2:42. We all must be born from above. However, if you wish to follow Judaism do so to the glory of God. All of us need to Make sure to get good training in the proper handling of scripture. You/we all can do what our conscience says if we are submitted to Christ. Rom 14 and col 2
David Morales
This is taken from the article.
Premise 1:
“The law was given to the Jewish people to set them apart from the Gentile nations around them. Because the Jews were Abraham’s offspring to whom God had given a promise”
Premise 2:
“Believers in Jesus—both Jews and Gentiles—are considered Abraham’s offspring and the heirs of God’s promises.”
Conclusion:
The law was given to us, because we are Abraham’s offspring. To set us appart from the gentiles!
R. L. Solberg
Haha! Thanks, David. This an excellent example of the absurd conclusions we can come to when we establish our premises with no regard for context. Best, Rob
eltantillo
It would be of much more blessing to point out how the context changes the premises and therefore the conclusion, than simply pointing it out. It is useless for me to say that “your comment is the perfect example of someone who has no arguments”, just because it lacks them, if I do not indicate what those arguments could be. One is a criticism with no desire to help, the other seeks to help the one who has the error.
I am very open to correct my mistakes, but we all need to be told what they are, no one goes through life with a clear conscience doing things they know are wrong.
stilllifeadventures906435745
Four long years, I have lived under a husband, that first found “Torah” through a person, who also sarcastically said something of this nature, “Flat Earth, is a salvation issue you stupid deceived Roman rooted followers of the Son of Zeus, Christians.”, Rob Skiba (RIP)…His, (my husband’s) entry into the torah movement went from Rob Skiba’s FE, to and introduction to, Justin Best, a YouTuber, who has since become apostate through his false teachings against Paul…He moved on from Justin to find another, very sarcastic and condescending guy out of Colorado, named, Sean (Kingdom in Context)…thousands of hours of YouTube under their tutelage…and absolutely no sharpening…just sitting under teaching…NOT ONE TIME did I not hear slander come from the mouths of these people, against the Church, The Bride of Christ and others that did not agree…this rubbed off on my husband…
James 4:11
Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
Proverbs 10:18
He who conceals hatred has lying lips,
And he who spreads slander is a fool.
Colossians 3:8
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Slanderous behavior in a very public place, I might add…
My husband also found a “fellowship” here in MO in the city of Nixa, led by Adam Fink (Parable of the Vineyard)…I attended two Sabboth meetings this past summer, to “check things out”, because a couple of women he met from Passover, had been contacting him through FB and texts without my knowledge and the conversations were inappropriate for a woman unmarried, talking with a man who is married. When this issue was brought up to the fellowship leadership, there was no reprimand to any party, and they actually swept the issue under the rug…We also have two young girls 9 &10 who I was trying to protect…There are also issues of Polygamy within this group as well…as of July, the leadership had not “decided” if the first wife had the right to leave her husband, who had taken a second wife without her “giving’ the woman to him…the second “wife” was pregnant at the time by her husband…
The last and only second, Shabbat, I attended in June 2021, the elders, appointed by Adam and only Adam, stood up during Shabbat and told the group, “NO ONE was allowed to invite anyone new into the group, without them first being ‘vetted’ and cleared by the eldership” (there are 6 elders for less than 100 people) My husband and I were the “first” asked to meet with them, as I was not a Torah observant member (wasn’t/won’t be)….
This group is currently in the works for the purchase of “compound land” in Ava, MO, to start a living together fellowship and “invited” my husband, who is in real estate to help with that transaction…
Sadly, through the extreme abuses: mentally, physically, and spiritually, against me, I cannot fight anymore the constant condemnation ..our marriage is coming to an end…(God does have the final say and I’m in hope for restoration)
They, HRM, can never say, “it’s not a salvation issue”, because in this house, through the teachings of: Justin Best, Rob Skiba, Adam Fink, 119 Ministries, and Sean (KIC), I have been told/screamed at by my husband, that I will not be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Because I am not following my husband into Torah, I am an unbelieving, lawless, unsubmitted wife, who has “uncovered herself” and because I do not believe the cosmology of Flat Earth Theory, I cannot even understand truth…That’s a big arrow from the evil one to my heart and psyche…because, if I cannot understand truth, I cannot even know Jesus, because He IS THE TRUTH!!!…and it has been stated more than a hundred times about me for the past four years…THIS IS THE LEGACY of HRM/TORAH OBSERVANCE…
This movement, with my husband’s help, has destroyed not only me and my immediate family, but also the relationship with his dad, mom, grandpa, grandma, older daughters, sister, nieces, nephews, FIL, MIL, B&SILs, and almost all of his friendships…(The irony with all those relationships that he broke by abuse, they/We/I, still love him. Us Christians who are in a Roman rooted religion, still love him)…and furthermore, this is not the unity the Apostles taught The Bride of Christ to adhere, too, this is the “stupid arguments” & “false teachings” we were told to stay away from…
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Ephesians 4:1-6
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy[a] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel…
If the movement is of The Spirit and led by The Spirit, it will show the fruits…But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23
R. L. Solberg
It breaks my heart to hear your story Thank you so much for sharing it. A lot of people wonder what the big deal is with the Hebrew Roots/Torah-observant movements. They don’t see the danger in it. You’ve just explained it better than I ever could. Blessings, Rob
Cheryl
My prayer for this dear sister is that Jesus will bring healing to her. Her sharing this story gives me greater motivation to help my pastor move away from hrm. I am truly sorry and pray that the Lord will reknit your heart and bring joy to you.
Bola
What stop a woman to submit wisely to her husband if it comes to the matter of faith when is not that his sinning , I just became Torah observer but married for over 30years with my husband we’ve both been Christian all our lives together raising our children all we’re talking about is scripture, I have right to believe or not believe in what what my husband believe, but for the fact that I want and love my husband and my children I will lovingly submit my self to his leadership and his authority scripture teaches women to obey and learn from there husband. Christianity do not want to follow Torah but paganism in everything my questions is this what is there business with the Bible that contains LAWS and the PROPHETS
Ric Joyner
Bola,
Dear one beware that you are now in the snare of this Torah Keeping heresy and therefore in the enemy camp. It will and does lead people away from the Lord Jesus Christ to keeping Torah. Christ did not call us to that. Paul, in Galatians warned people who preached keeping Torah to new gentile christians to stop it and not to be a Judaizer. Who were they and what do they do? They were jewish people believing in Christ who wanted to protect Judaism by getting gentile people to practice Judaism (Torah). The Lord Jesus was promised to come by the prophets so He came. Fulfilled! Christ is the Word of God and paid our debt of sin by His perfect sacrifice for all who believe on Him. he fulfilled the law. Paul says we died to sin and the law (eph 4 and Romans) by faith. It has always been about faith. Not what we do. The HRM crowd of false teachers have to denigrate Christianity to get people to join them. And that is the hook. False history, over generalizations, and they have you. Don’t go further into this false teaching until you personally get bible study method training. Hrm believes in polygamy in many circles. Sick
David
What is your belief in pretribulation rapture? THAT is a snare to those who believe in it.
stilllifeadventures906435745
Bola, “wisely” is a very operative word here. “As unto The Lord”, is also a scripture portion for wives to follow. Jesus would never ask me to do something contrary to His Holy Spirit.
Yes, I do get to choose whether I sin or not and according to Paul in Galatians 5:
“Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
I have not studied out the words “in everything”, but I can deduce, that if my husband is asking me to help him murder the next door neighbor; I would be righteous in telling him, no, and then calling the authorities to have him arrested. I would be justified in not submitting…
Parallels can be made for him “requiring me” to enter this movement!
As a Christ Follower (Christian), I don’t want to be associated with such things…and have witnessed all of the following:
– The number of people spiritually “murdered” by this group, is astounding!
– “Love your neighbor”, in this group, really seems to only mean, “those who are in it” and often, they do a very poor job of doing that.
– The amount of hatred and spewing of vitriol, HRM have for Christians, is astounding and not of the Holy Spirit! (Jesus said, if you hate your brother, you have commited murder…)
– The amount of men and women, just in the group my husband fellowships with, that have left their spouses (for non-biblical reasons) and divorced them, because of HRM beliefs is astounding!
– The lack of True Peace in this group is astounding!
– The hypocrisy within the group is astounding!
– The polygamy and the “matchmakers” in this group is astounding!
– The abuse of children in this movement is astounding!!
– The the amount of physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual abuse, committed against women in this movement is astounding!!
Jesus would not ask me to step into a movement that literally defames His name…I am a Ezer-Kenegdo…not a helpmeet.
Also, the insinuation that I have not submitted is pretty bold statement from someone that does not know me.
The steps I have taken in Honoring my husband and submitting what is fitting:
– I have taken pork out of our diet
– I Sabbath with him
– I go to feasts with him
…which I might add is pretty much the sum of all that HRM do…the only difference in me and you, him, them; I don’t believe it has anything to do with my salvation…and for that, I am called unbiblical, without salvation and a plethora of other names and statements…
Regards,
Ida
Anonymous
If you see something, say something. Don’t stay silent in your HRM groups. You do know there are homosexual Christians saving their virginity until marriage. Some of the seven churches of Revelation had problems.
Send your unbiblical divorcée to this study
https://eliyah.com/marriage-divorce-remarriage/
Ric Joyner
Well said Ida. I have seen it all too.
Ric Joyner
Ida watch out for the Anonymous person they are appear to support a Torah Keeping cult heresy. Beware of them. Christ fulfilled the Law through His death and resurrection. We believe Him for justification. This group has teaching that is HRM.
Anonymous
Ida watch out for the Anonymous person. This group teaches HRM and teaches against every problem you listed above.
https://eliyah.com/what-to-do-if-you-want-to-serve-yahweh-but-dont-know-where-to-start/
1. Admit you are a sinner.
Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of Yahweh;
2. Repent! In other words, turn away from what you know to be wrong and commit your life to walking in righteousness, by biblical standard.
3. Believe in Yahushua the Messiah (commonly called ‘Jesus’) and accept His offer to cleanse you from all sin. Pray to Yahweh a sincere prayer of repentance and confess that you believe that Yahushua the Messiah died so that all of your sins could be laid on Him. Ask for forgiveness of your sins in Yahushua’s Name and you will be forgiven! This is a wonderful free gift!
1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
3. Become baptized in the name of Yahushua the Messiah! This marks a public confession of your newfound faith and commitment to walking in uprightness and truth. If you can’t find someone who will baptize you in His real name, let me know and I may be able to find someone who will. Now go and sin no more!
Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous
If we do away with the law of God, we do away with the knowledge of sin, if we do away with the knowledge of sin then we do away with the need to repent, if we do away with the need to repent then Jesus Christ died in vain. He did not come preaching a different word, He came teaching His Fathers word. If He came to fulfill the law, the way you see it, then why would He exhort me to pluck out my eye if it causes me to sin because it is better to enter the kingdom without one of my members then for my whole body and soul to be cast into hell? If Jesus death, nullifies obedience to God, why would I have to make war on myself in order to make it into heaven (Jesus says obedience is salvational). But they didn’t hear His words either. There are plenty of no HRM groups that seek to put righteousness to death I. The earth and win souls to for hell. Let’s come back to the middle. Left and right extremism is found in every sphere of life. So let us not kill the whole movement for the actions of some who do not have the right spirit. Jesus taught us how the law applies to my inward man. God have mercy.
R. L. Solberg
Here’s the thing: God’s laws about right and wrong and obedience and love have existed since the very beginning, long before the law of Moses was given. Murder isn’t wrong because it says so in the 10 Commandments, it has been wrong since Cain and Abel. Sexual immorality isn’t wrong because the law of Moses says so. It’s been wrong since Sodom and Gomorrah. Romans 5:13 says that sin was in the world before the law was given. And sin has been wrong since before we had the Mosaic law to tell us so. And that hasn’t changed. Christians are called to avoid sin and to live lives of love, service, purity, obedience, and moral virtue. Blessings, Rob
Lorrie
Anonymous,
God’s moral code was from the beginning. Later a called out family, Israel became His chosen nation to honor and represent Him to the world. They were given that written code to follow. It came with blessings and curses.
The Law brought a curse. It was perfect but man could not nor can not follow it.
Amazing news…you and I have never been under the Law.
Christ fulfilled the Law. He was the only One who could. He did not die in vain!
Christ died for the sins of the whole world!
We are reconciled to God through His shed blood not following the Law.
The Mosaic penalty for sin was fulfilled. We still sin today and there are earthly repercussions on many levels. Yet, God sees us through His Son’s sacrifice.
Rest in that. It will bring peace and love to your heart that will overflow to others. Others will be drawn to the One who lives in you.
Ric Joyner
Lorrie, this is very well written. Very well
said. Unfortunately he teaches this false doctrine to subtly lead people under the Mosaic law and bondage not to Christ. Great job!
Lisa
My life is falling apart because of this movement. Huge mistakes were made and some of which were made because I wasn’t let in until too late.
My family, marriage, job, home…have all been effected. I cried on the side of the road for months wishing I could make this make sense.
My breaking point was when my niece who is three quietly told me while picking wild blackberries that apple pie is evil.
It’s just too much. I hope your book will help with this. My family has been very shaken with all of this. I pulled away and now my in-laws think I am lawless, sinful and evil. They even tried to separate my husband and I saying I am mentally unstable.
R. L. Solberg
It breaks my heart to hear this, Lisa. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. Sadly, you’re not alone. I hear from many people whose families are being damaged by these Torah-observant heresies. But I can also say “you are not alone” in another far more beautiful sense. God sees you and He is with you, even in the midst of the mess. I have also heard from a number of people who have come out of the Hebrew Roots cult and their families have been restored.
I know you didn’t ask for my advice, but I would encourage you in this time to lean into God and pray for your family. I don’t think we can fully appreciate the power and radical nature of Jesus’ command “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” until we’re enduring persecution ourselves. This passage came to mind for you:
“Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:14-21)
Blessings, Rob
Ida
Lisa, I totally understand all that you have written…I am sorry you are facing it as well. Just today, I asked my husband to read from a real translation of scripture (he was reading the paraphrased version, “The Living Bible” to my girls. Simply asked he read from a non-paraphrased version a d he called me a unruly I submitted wife who just won’t let him lead. Then went on to tell me I’m lawless…six months ago, he would have skewered anyone who read anything other than KJV…there just isn’t any rhyme or reason to it all. We were forced to watch and hour long conversation glorifying, Matthew Janzen, and his Torah teaching and told it was scripture for the Sabbath…so frustrating…prayers for you and your family. Hold Strong in Your Faith!!!
Jay
I’m sorry you have met such ugly people when you encounter this movement. Let’s get to the root of the divide. There is plenty of scripture to back up Shabbat is a holy day and suppose to be observed. There is no scripture evidence of SUNday worship. The other great issue is Christmas and Easter. These are not observed by the messiah or his apostles. However the feast day were and should be celebrated by all believers. There is evidence that Christmas and Easter have pagan roots. The feast days roots or written right in the Bible. It’s even debated on when the birth of our messiah was. He never mentioned he celebrating his birthday or said anything about his birthday. It is irrelevant to scripture. I’m not saying your evil or condemned for celebrating it. It’s just not scriptural backed up. The movement is similar to the Protestant movement. We just want to get back to what scripture says. Love you and bless you as a fellow believer in the messiah.
Anonymous
The First century church commonly gathered on the first day of the week, Sunday. John 20:19. Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday. Acts 20:7, they were gathered together on the first day of the week to break bread and Paul talked to them. First Corinthians16:2, Paul instructed the Corinthians On the first day of the week that when they gather to put aside something to be given to those and need.
Smiley
Just because they Gathered on the first day of the week , doesnt mean that Sabbath was changed to this day. You can worship or teach Any day But the difference is that God himself set this seventh day apart as holy and He said to remember it. He knew we would forget and do our own thing.
darla723
The reason they gathered was to on the first day for the same reason we do today , to celebrate the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ(Yeshua) an to break bred the primary purpose of the gathering was the Lord’s Supper. and in Acts they were first called Christians see Hebrews 4:8-10 tells us that Christ and His finished work is our Sabbath, our rest..:When did they start calling them Christians?
The first recorded use of the term (or its cognates in other languages) is in the New Testament, in Acts 11 after Barnabas brought Saul (Paul) to Antioch where they taught the disciples for about a year, the text says that “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch” (Acts 11:26). I believe that Christ would not be celebrating his resurrection since he still walked here and to think he would makes no sense in logical reasoning as he had not died. Christ fulfilled the feasts in being the passover( The Lamb perfect) He takes away the sins of the world. He fulfilled the some of the other feasts of unleaven bread, first fruits( he was the first fruits from the dead to be resurrection…he fulfilled Penecostal ( the church was born the descending of the Holy Spirit (fire)) so he will fulfilled the remaining feasts. The church celebrates these feasts therefore in a new way so perhaps Torah people are missing this I believe. The ones I have encounter on FB and listened to the videos they gave I encounter may scriptures verse from Holy Spirit that this is a false teaching especially on Matthew 5:17-18( missing the point where it says till all is fulfilled(the word fulfilled means to fill out, expand, or complete. it does not mean to bring to and end.1. Jesus fulfills the law in several ways: He obeyed it perfectly and taught its correct meaning( v. 19,20) 2. he will one day fulfill all of the Old Testament types and prophecies;and 3. He provides a wya of salvation that meets all all the requirements of the law(Rom. 3;21,31). I pickup an arrogant attitude of condemning other Christians in Christ from their teachings. There is a reason for the New Covenant ( as Hebrews teaches why )….this from a friend on the Christmas date and it will help to see that Christ’s Birth may by Dec. 25….Many people wrongly assume that Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) “was born on the feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles)”, which is a direct contradiction of all of the collective proofs. A wide variety of credible, ancient biblical and historical evidences collectively and conclusively prove 100% beyond all reasonable doubt that Yeshua was born on the sacred festival of Hanukkah, when the biblical lunar-solar calendar date 25 Kislev 3757 overlapped the solar Julian calendar date December 25th, 5 B.C. Those who believe in the Sukkot birth date myth ignorantly quote Yochanan (John) 1:14 as alleged “proof”, while not even realizing that the Greek verb, “skenoo” simply means, “to dwell ; encamp, etc.”, and is a common word which contextually applies to all human beings, etc., who live in dwellings. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with the feast of Tabernacles, which is a fall harvest that is celebrated as Hebrews gather in Jerusalem. Joseph and Miriam (Mary) were descendants of the tribe of Judah, and did not travel to Jerusalem, but instead, went from the Galilean town of Nazareth to Bethlehem, because it was the city of David, for the Romans demanded that all twelve tribes of Israel return to their original ancestral hometowns for the census.
We know from Scripture that Yeshua was born at the time of the first Roman census (Luke 2:1-2) when Quirinius was Governor of Syria. A review of Roman documents describe this time frame as late in the year of 5 B.C. (3757). The year of the Crucifixion is confirmed by several historians due to the darkness that occurred from noon until 3:00 PM on 14 Nisan 3790 (April 5th, 30 A.D.) during the festival of Passover (Pesach). The historians Phlegon, Thallus, Africanus and Tertullian all mention this three hour period of darkness, that does not have a scientific explanation. It was neither a lunar or solar eclipse for many reasons. Eclipses do not last three hours and cannot happen during the full moon of Passover. This was a supernatural act of Yahweh.
For example Thallus, a Samaritan historian who wrote around 52 AD, and Phlegon, a Greek historian, both recorded the darkness. Thallus tried to explain away the darkness as an eclipse. Julius Africanus (AD 160-240) researched the topic of the darkness and wrote the following: “Upon the whole world there came a most fearful darkness. Many rocks were split in two by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. It seems very unreasonable to me that Thallus, in the third book of his histories, would try to explain away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun.”
The Hebrews celebrate their Passover on the 14th day according to the moon. But an eclipse of the sun can only take place when the moon crosses the sun. How then could an eclipse have occurred when the moon is directly opposite the sun? Scientifically it is impossible to have a full moon on the same day that there is an eclipse of the sun. The Roman historian Phlegon is mentioned by Origen who describes a darkening of the sun in the eighteenth year of Tiberius on 14 Nisan-Passover which would be 30 A.D. (3790). According to the context of the Gospel Scriptures, Yeshua (Jesus) was 33 years old when He died. If you calculate 33 years backwards from 30 A.D. (3790), it is 5 B.C. (3757), when He was born.
If anyone wants to conduct accurate ancient Hebrew biblical lunar-solar calendar date conversions to the solar Roman Julian calendar dates, then I highly-recommend this site.
[If the links are not clickable, then please copy-and-paste them into a new internet window/page to visit the websites]
Here is the date conversion data from the Hebrew calendar year 3757 (Roman Julian year 5 B.C.):
http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?hebrew=3757
This is the date conversion data from the Hebrew calendar year 3790 (Roman Julian year 30 A.D.):
http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?hebrew=3790
This site has an accurate calendar date duration calculator :
https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1247118517
Chag Chanukah sameach (Happy Hanukkah 🕎 festival). Yeshua (Jesus) is the Reason For The Season. HalleluYah!!! 🙌 Many credible biblical, historical and archaeological evidences confirm in unison that our Savior was born on the sacred festival of Hanukkah, when the biblical lunar-solar calendar date 25 Kislev 3757 overlapped the solar Julian calendar date December 25th, 5 B.C. It is unfortunate that we are told many speculative untruths in opposition to the factual birth date of Yeshua haMashiach (Iesous Christos / Jesus the Anointed One) by non-credible sources who ignorantly spread misinformation propaganda. The purpose of this article is to expose and conclusively refute and disprove those myths.
“Historical Proof Of The Birth Of Yeshua (Jesus) The Messiah On Hanukkah (25 Kislev 3757 / December 25, 5 B.C.)”
http://insightfromourheavenlyabbaslight.blogspot.com/…
May be an image of text that says ‘世ש העולם! אור הוא ישוע Yeshua is the Light of the world!’Shalom
Lorrie Kinlaw
Christ is our sabbath rest. We are to present our bodies, a living sacrifice. All days are His and holy.
Run from this cultic teaching. Truth…You were never under Torah and you can’t keep it. Israel could not keep it and they had the temple in Jerusalem; the Levitical priesthood and the sacrificial system.
Paul’s messages were given to him by the risen Lord! Please keep reading the Scripture. The truth was progressively revealed. Take into account historical context and audience relevance.
Most importantly, Christ fulfilled Scripture!!
Ric Joyner
Lorrie well said. Part of the prob in HBR is the anti church sentiment and lack of proper biblical study methods. Wrong input equals bad output. Thanks!
eltantillo
Christ is our justice as well, does that mean we no longer have to do justice?
Anonymous
Christ is the bread of life, do we stop eating bread?
Anonymous
I don’t think RL ever responded to the 1,000 year reign where there will be sabbath, feasts and sacrifices.
The law does contain sacrifices, but none of those sacrifices ever took away sin. They only pictured the one who does. They were physical illustrations of a spirtual truth. The same is true of baptism and partaking of the unleavened bread and fruit of the vine representing Yahushua’s body/blood. They are physical illustrations of a spiritual truth. Do we no longer baptize because now we have the Messiah? Do we no longer partake of the communion?
The day will come, during the 1,000 year reign, that the law will be the law of the entire world. And everyone will keep the feast days, the Sabbath and the new moons.
Isaiah 66:23-24 – And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says Yahweh.
24 “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Zechariah 14:16-21 – And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which Yahweh strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE YAHWEH ” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in Yahweh’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to Yahweh of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of Yahweh of hosts.
There will again be feasts and yes, vs. 21 says sacrifices. Read Ezekiel 40 to the end. Yahushua is coming to set up a new covenant reign, not an old covenant reign. And the Sabbath, feasts and even sacrifices are a part of that. I know that comes as a shocker to those stuck in traditional Christian theology and eschatology, but it is the truth. Receive it or reject it… your choice.
But the sacrifices and feasts will simply represent what they always have represented: The plan of salvation for all mankind. Just like baptism and communion. The existence of a fulfillment does not mean “do away with” or “ignore this commandment here.” It means He did it, and He wants us to walk as He walked:
1 John 2:6 – He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked
Our choice
Ric Joyner
The sad part of your post is that it is so biblically twisted it borders on deception. A hard core deception. The logical conclusion you hope we are deceived by is like the 3 cup magic trick with the ball in it on the street corner. The logic you want us to conclude is “because the nation of Israel will have these sacrifices” during the millennium all believers better get in line with the heretical teachings of HRM and learn to keep Torah. This is bizarre teaching. It borders on blasphemy to the Lord Jesus Christ sacrifice for us! Your posture is Get in line with the law of Moses because you will have to do that in the millennial Kingdom. Ot does not matter apparently that it is people who went through the tribulation and live on earth and are born during the M-kingdom! And all those saved before Christ and after Christ who are believers are in Christ have new sinless bodies. These prophecies are not for Christ believers. This is basic bible hermeneutics and destroys your false teaching. All Jews and Gentiles are under the Law of Christ which has 1642 Greek Imperatives given to us by Christ and His disciples. Torah means instruction. Why disobey Christ’s command (instruction) to follow Him and His apostles (acts 2:42 and John 20:20-23)? No one could keep the law of Moses because it required perfection. Only God is perfect. Christ came as the second Adam and God to pay our penalty for sin. Law of Moses fulfilled. The prophets proclaimed He was coming. Fulfilled. This teaching and all of Torah Keepers and HRM (even some Messianic Judaism) take our eyes off of Christ to practice the Torah and rabbinic Judaism. No call from Christ asks us to do that. Learn all you can from the Bible on what Israel had to do but live for Christ today in the world. And this teaching is so false. Be warned, if you believe in Christ as savior you will have a new sinless body in the millennium. Pls people disregard this person as fast as you can.
Anonymous
There’s no twisting. It’s a simple question.
If your logic is if the Messiah fulfilled the law, so we don’t need sabbath today, then the question is why do we do sabbath with Messiah in the millennium when it is fulfilled?
I don’t see anyone responding to this question because your definition of fulfilled doesn’t work here.
Regarding the above comments on “fulfill,” there are many different ways of describing obedience in the bible. Walking out commandments, living out His word, observing His commands, keeping His ways, etc. In the case of Yahushua, He loved Yahweh and He loved His fellow man. This is how He fulfilled the law. We are also told to fulfill the law by loving one another. This is another way of describing obedience to the commandments, all of which are teaching us how to love Yahweh and how to love one another.
Romans 13:10 – Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8 – Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 – For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
And we cannot love one another unless we love Yahweh:
1 John 5:2 – By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we love Elohim and keep His commandments.
Yahweh doesn’t “ask,” us to love, He commands it. If we walk in love by keeping His commandments, we will also be actively fulfilling the law.
The Messiah was sent, by our Father’s command, to do what He was predicted to do: Die for our sins. He fulfilled that part of the law also. That wasn’t for us, it was for Him to accomplish. Yahweh knew that all of us had sinned, and have failed to fulfill the law’s demands. For this reason, Yahushua did what the law could not do for us:
Romans 8:3-4 – For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The requirements were fulfilled in us, as long as we are willing to walk in the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh. What’s the difference between walking in the Spirit and walking according to the flesh? Let’s continue reading…
Romans 8:5-7 – For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim; for it is not subject to the law of Elohim, nor indeed can be.
The flesh is not subject to the law, and has no interest in walking as Yahushua walked, fulfilling the law. Thus, it is not subject to the law. But if we have the Holy Spirit, we are going to subject ourselves to what the law tells us to do. That’s why it is predicted:
Ezekiel 36:27 – “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Anonymous
“No call from Christ asks us to do that.” We don’t do Rabbinic Judaism because Yahushua is our Rabbi, but we do repent according to the definition of sin when Messiah preached repentance. When the Messiah was preaching repentance, what was the definition of sin? We also follow commandments of the Messiah and apostles.
Ric Joyner
There is literally no point in arguing with you as the deception is incredible. You put yourself under Torah as the Jews did and become blind ignoring Christ’s commands. You have a different Gospel. Jesus plus Torah. You all who are Torah Keepers follow rabbinic judaism. Example how does one “do” sabbath? Well typically they research Judaism to figure out how to do it. Make havdalla bread? Have candles and a pre programmed prayers by having women start the sabbath? Model your service after Jews? Get prepped for sabbath the day before? Check for 3 stars on the day of closing? Check for new moons? Disregard the resurrection of Christ which fulfilled the Torah for passover? Would you tell people to leave their job to not work on sabbath? Eat Kosher when Christ said it is what comes out of man’s heart that defiles them? Ignore the law of Christ? Will you go to Jerusalem for the new temple for the tribulation and sacrifice? Many will in Hrm. Ever heard of polygamy in Hrm? How about spiritual marriages? Sick. Of course you follow Rabbinic Judaism. You have no other model to “do” torah. Hate the name Christian? The HS called us Christians in Acts. You are followers of Moshe who pointed to Christ and disregard God the Father’s command to “now listen to Him” in Mark 9 with Elijah and Moses there. Jesus said follow me but you twist and ignore Scripture blatantly to follow torah and preach a gospel of keeping torah not salvation. The worst part about this false teaching you push, as all false teachers do, is take Scripture out of context as you did in the millennial kingdom prophecy. I noticed you didn’t deal with that. Bad bad false teaching.
Anonymous
Your experience with TO/HRM aren’t the same for all. Do you follow the Roman catholic pope? Some TO/HRM don’t follow rabbinic traditions. Example, remember sabbath by simply helping others and congregate to hear the word and don’t work cook and boil. They don’t judge every detail what you do on sabbath because we have different convictions from the Spirit. Checking for new moons is Scripture, not rabbinical. They don’t eat lamb for Passover. Would you fire people for not working on Sabbath? Yahushua was talking to Pharisees in the context of men’s tradition of washing hands before eating food. Pork was never food for them. We love the commandments of the Messiah. They teach against polygamy in countries where it causes people to stumble. They’re only model for Torah is Scripture. No extra traditions. They don’t hate the name Christian. Acts also says we’re followers of the Way. Laws of Moshe are commandments of Yahweh given through Moshe. We are ultimately following Yahweh whether the commandments are from Moshe or Yahushua or apostles.
Now that we got that out of the way, what did I say that was false or out of context about the millennium kingdom?
Natalie
I have a son and his family involved with HRM and have tried and continues to try and convert my husband and I. I read a lot and came across your site and am very appreciative of clarifying a number of things. I pray for my son and his family continuously but after listening to the many comments my heart breaks, not only for them but my son and his family also I guess I need to step up my praying. Thank you once again for your insight into the scriptures.
R. L. Solberg
Thank you, Natalie. It means a lot to me that my work has been helpful to you. I’m sorry for what you’re going through! I know how frustrating it is. Jesus taught us that persistent prayer is powerful. And how much more, I imagine, the prayers of a mother. “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly” (Luke 18:7-8a) We can trust that, even when things are frustrating or feel hopeless or stalled out, God is working out His will in His perfect timing. Blessings, Rob
Carol Simonton
Hi Rob,
I came across across a guy on tictok who is a Torah observer. At first it seemed interesting but then I noticed he separated himself from “Christians”. Then I noticed the snarky remarks to those who disagreed with him. On one of his videos, he was telling Christian’s that Heaven was closed, in an insulting and condescending manner. It was very upsetting. Apparently Matthew 5:17-20 is one of the NT scriptures they hold fast to. I can see why it is compelling for them. Can you explain this scripture for me? It does appear to be Torah-leaning.
Thank you for your help,
Carol
Anonymous
Hi Rob, I couldn’t find how to leave a comment so I thought I would use this reply box… So, thanks very much for this article, I’ve sent it to my my brother in S Africa who now seems to be very into Seventh Day Adventist teaching. I think you are very patient with those who express views that centre around specific verses, rather than them viewing the whole panoramic sweep of the Bible text. One sentence I thought of which maybe encapsulates how the NT continues on from and supercedes the Old ; I don’t try to love You with all my heart and soul and mind and strength, I just get out of the way and allow Your love in me to flow out from me, so that I love as You love. Anyway thanks again Rob for your work and writing on this. Cheers and love. Roy
Timothy Grady
Thanks for clarifying these issues .
John 3:16 alone refutes all attempts to “come in some other way”.
If anything else were a NECESSARY condition of Everlasting Life than simple childlike faith in Jesus for it , then it would NECESSARILY have to be in John 3:16 – and in every conceivable Evangelistic/Justification before God/Everlasting Life passage .
Yet , this is precisely what we do not find .
Jay
Read past John 3:16 until John 3:21. These verses are all connected and continue the train of thought. I’ll post John 3:20-21
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
What is light defined as in the Bible?
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; And reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
What about whoever loves by the truth?
Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth
Just using scripture to define scripture. I only showing Bible truth.
Revelation 14:12 – Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Both commandments and faith are important
Revelation 22:14 – Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
What did Messiah say himself?
Matthew 5:17-18 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
He said he didn’t come to abolish the law or the prophets. He even goes on to further explain that until heaven and earth disappear then nothing from the law will disappear. We are still awaiting his second coming. Not everything had been accomplished. I come only in love and show only what the Bible says. Please just look at both sides of the argument before jumping to conclusions.
R. L. Solberg
Amen, Jay! And what’s interesting is the way we keep God’s commandments under the New Covenant is not the same way they were kept under Moses. For example, under Moses, we kept God’s commandments by bringing our animal sacrifices to the temple. Under the New Covenant, we obey Him by presenting our bodies “as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is our spiritual worship.” (Rom 12:). “For the one who loves another has fulfilled the law” (Rom 13:8b).
And when you read Matt 5:17-18, don’t forget to read what Yeshua said about that statement after He was resurrected in Luke 24:44-48. Jesus fulfilled the law and His disciples were witnesses to it!
Shalom,
Rob
Jay
Thank you for your reply brother. I am not going to turn you to see the fullness of the scripture but hopefully I can show to others that are viewing that there is scripture that shows these law are eternal. We serve an eternal God and he gives us eternal commands to follow him. He does not change.
Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Psalm 119:160
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
Exodus 31:16
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
The word fulfill is used out of context a lot and we can look at the original meaning in Greek. Fulfil below has other meanings and even if you use it to mean finish, its a period or task. He completed his tasks, he made full the prophecy that was written about him for his first coming.
Strong’s G4137 – plēroō
πληρόω plēróō, play-ro’-o; from G4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:—accomplish, × after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Below is a few examples of prophecies not completed including Abraham possessing the law for an everlasting possession, resurrected bodies to live forever, law will be in us and everyone will know the true God. Also remove wicked, detestable things and all its abominations.
Genesis 17:7-8
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Isa 66:22-23
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed;
the offspring of the wicked will perish.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Psalm 40:8
I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
Proverbs 25:5
Take away the wicked from before the king, And his throne will be established in righteousness.
Ezekiel 11:17-20
17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
His laws he gave us are eternal laws and are perfect at converting the soul to righteous. I am a testimony to this and here to show that his laws are a blessing!
Psalm 19:7
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Love you all as brothers or sisters in Messiah.
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, Jay. You and I agree that the Law of God is eternal, that we serve an eternal God who does not change, and that He gives us eternal commands to follow him. The Law God gave through Moses was holy, righteous, and good, (Rom 7:12), but it was not intended to last forever (Gal 3:24-25). The unchanging, eternal Law of God was expressed differently under Moses than under Yeshua. Here’s a short video I made that explains what I mean: The Unchanging Law of God.
Do you disagree that some things have changed under the New Covenant because of the work of Christ? I don’t imagine you sacrifice animals to atone for your sin, do you? If you follow Messiah, you know that He fulfilled those commandments by becoming our sacrifice once for all.
“And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” (Heb 10:11-13).
Blessings,
Rob
Jay
Brother I am not your enemy nor is anyone else that professes the Messiah. We are wrestle against wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12). What I am putting forward is that there was a great awakening and a second awakening in our history. History cannot fully explain it but the awakening pointed out that the churches were not following the scripture. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I decided to go to Christian non denominational as an adult. The Protestant movements started in the 1500 created many different denominations. However these denominations all are about the same now. They lost their identity and why they protested in the first place. I believe we are in a current awakening and seeing that our churches don’t teach what the Bible says. Just like the great awakening it is starting many different “denominations” within the movement however people are trying to return to what the Bible says.
The Messiah is our high priest (Hebrews 4:14-16). The problem was never the laws or instructions, it was people. The priest kept getting corrupted and would sacrifice to false gods. Christ was prophesied to be our high priest (Zechariah 6:12-13) which puts us under a new priesthood. The commandments for priest and what priest were suppose to do has been fulfilled by Messiah. So no there is no sacrifice like you pointed out.
However Leviticus 23 feast and sabbath are not under the priesthood and still apply to us. “And I gave them my Sabbath days of rest as a sign between them and me. It was to remind them that I am the LORD, who had set them apart to be holy” (Ezekiel 20:12). By worshipping on the sabbath we are saying that we worship the God that created heaven and earth in 7 days.
There is Antichrist spirits in this world (1 John 4:3). The enemy has been at work for 2000 years and his goal is to separate us from the Most High. Evolution, age of the earth, SUNday worship, “holidays”, distractions from reading the Bible, and many other ways the enemy attacks us. Polls show 11 percent of Americans read the Bible daily. If you look at the origins of the “holidays” celebrated today in our society it is disturbing. There are few that enter into the kingdom and there is unsound teaching (Matthew 7:22), (Matthew 7:13), (2 Timothy 4:3). Christ was at odds with the priests and teachers at his time. However he did say to do what is taught by Moses (Matthew 23:2). He kept referring to Moses and even stood beside Moses (Matthew 8:4) (John 5:46) (Matthew 17:1-3). I just pray that people seek out the truth through the Bible and awaken that we might be getting mislead by “religions”. There is a lukewarm church shown to us in scripture called Church in Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22). There was a council of laodicea (ad 336) transferred the sabbath from saturday to sunday. There is also a church in Smyrna there are people that claim they are jews but are not (Revelation 2:8-9). This is not my own words, it’s written in scripture. I just believe that we should do Bible studies with small groups of people because Christ will be with them (Matthew 18:20).
Once again I am not your enemy or any other professing Christian. I just am pointing out things that are written in the Bible but not practiced. I love God and want to do everything I can to show that I obey him. I might be overshooting and overachieving but I fear God (Proverbs 1:7). I fear “the One who can destroy both soul and body” (Matthew 10:28).
I bless you.
R. L. Solberg
Absolutely, Jay. I do not consider you an enemy. I agree with you about the state of biblical literacy in the modern church. And I share your desire to live a life that is pleasing to God.
It’s important to note that the feasts given in Leviticus 23 were given to Israel as a nation. They were not given to the Gentiles. The Egyptians were never expected to keep Sukkot. The Babylonians were not required to observe Pesach. The Assyrians were not commanded to celebrate Yom Kippur. And no Gentile nation was ever expected to keep Shabbat. Unlike the moral commandments about murder, adultery, child sacrifice, greed, and so on, the Gentile nations were never judged for not keeping the feasts or Shabbat.
Christians began gathering on Sunday (the Lord’s Day) very early on. We have glimpses of it in the NT and direct attestations in the writings of the early church, in documents like the Didache, which is dated to the 1st century and may even have been written while some of the apostles were still alive. As holy as the given times were in the Torah, the timing of the events of Christ are no less divine. It is no accident that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week and that the church was born on the first day of the week when the Spirit came at Pentecost. These are of great relevance to the Christ-follower. During the early years of the church, the believers did maintain some of the Jewish traditions, such as the hours of prayer (Acts 3:1), and Saturday Shabbat. In fact, in the early decades, many Jewish believers in Yeshua kept Sabbath on the last day of the week and gathered with the rest of the church on the first day of the week. The gentile followers of Jesus who were never under the Mosaic Sabbath requirements felt no necessity to observe that custom. And as time went on, they moved away from the Mosaic calendar and developed their own pattern of worship as the Spirit taught them.
(Also, just an aside, if we want to make a point of the pagan origin of the name of SUNday, we need to also acknowledge the pagan origin of SATURNday.)
Blessings,
Rob
Jay
Brother I keep showing you scripture after scripture. The Bible including the New Testament never say the Sabbath changed. Yeshua was gone from the cave on Sunday. Meaning he already Arose on the Sabbath. Even if it was Sunday he never said this would change the Sabbath day. Once again Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Same thing with your video you sent. The Bible never said the principles is the Law of God. Bible never says that my underline principles won’t change but my laws will. I keep showing you Bible verse after Bible verse. You are giving me your interpretations and documentation by early church that was already falling away from the Bible.
Leviticus 24:22 says “You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.” This was always open for anyone that wanted to follow the one true God. The other nations didn’t follow the Laws but that doesn’t mean that they were commanded not to.
Deuteronomy 30 shows a prophecy that we would return to his commands and obey him. “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 30:1-2)
Yeshua preached the kingdom more than anything else while he walked on this earth. When he was first starting his ministry Jesus said this, “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent.” (Luke 4:43) We are waiting for the glorious day that his kingdom will come. Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15). This is one is the “gospels” the good news!
What will we do when his kingdom comes? We observe the feast days.
Zechariah 14:16 tells us “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”
The kingdom is called Jerusalem, Zion, or Israel. They are all the same thing talked about throughout the Bible. Galatians 3:28
Tells us that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” If you are wanting to be part of his kingdom you are an Israelite. A kingdom has laws and they are given to us. Ezekiel 37:15-23 tells us about this one nation that will be ruled by 1 king. Romans 11:11-24 explains to us that we are grafted into Israel.
Saturday is based off of a pagan god of the Romans. But Sabbath being created by God came first at creation. It being written down in the Bible came first before Rome was even an empire. Almost every other language has its name based off the sabbath. Let’s take Spanish for example “sábado”. This just shows how twisted our whole culture has become like I’ve been saying. We refer the planets after pagan gods. We celebrate pagan holidays. We worship on a pagan day of SUNday. People are just wanting to do what the Bible says not what the world teaches.
R. L. Solberg
Brother, Jay!
You wrote, “Yeshua was gone from the cave on Sunday. Meaning he already arose on the Sabbath.” I agree with you that Scripture clearly indicates the tomb was discovered empty early on a Sunday morning. But it offers no reason to think Jesus had actually been raised from the dead the previous day. In fact, that idea seems highly unlikely because if Yeshua rose on Shabbat but wasn’t discovered until the next day it would introduce a great deal of confusion. Jesus told His disciples,
When Yeshua spoke of being raised “on the third day,” was He referring to the day He would actually rise, or the day His disciples would learn that He had risen? If Jesus was raised on Shabbat, and that was the third day, then His followers did not learn of it until the fourth day. And the New Testament says nothing about a fourth day. In fact, the apostle Peter said,
Alternately, if the “third day” was intended to refer to the day Yeshua would be discovered alive, then He was actually resurrected on the second day. And the New Testament says nothing about a second day, either. In fact, it says,
Shalom,
Rob
Gideon
I think we often get lost in a world of labels, separation, selfish groups and forget that Ephesians 4:1-6 tells us that there is only “One body, One Faith, One Lord and One God”. There is no such thing as a Gentile Body, a Jewish Body, a Babylonian Body — but One Body.
You mention Egyptians and Babylonians as markers for gentiles, but we often forget that anyone who wanted to pledge their allegiance and faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, did so by JOINING His people (One body, One Faith, One Lord, One God).
God called Abraham out of a pagan world of gentiles and from his seed created a nation to be a light to the nations. Abraham the father of our Faith (Galatians 3/ Romans 4) is part of that One Body. Moses is part of One Body. Ruth is part of that One Body. David is part of that One Body. Daniel is part of that One Body. John the Immerser is part of that One Body. The repentant thief on the cross is part of that One Body. Paul is part of that One Body. Gentile believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are part of that One Body.
Most of the arguments in the above articles and many of the comments, come as a result of a man-made dichotomy created within that One Body— Gentile and Jewish. We will always go around in circles of man-made inventions until we first agree with the Scriptures that there is One body, One People, One Faith, One Lord, One Kingdom, One King and One God.
Once that is firmly established, we can easily discuss what the Instructions given to His Body/People/Kingdom are and how we apply them.
Anonymous
Excellent article, I grew up in this movement but left early on, it never sat right with me. The attitudes and division that you describe is down to a t of what I saw. The way verses are twisted to divide families breaks my heart. Like you have said not everyone does this, but it is very prevalent.
I still have family heavily rooted in this movement too and constantly pray the awake from this.
One fundamental issue I have with the movement is the picking and choosing on what is fulfilled and what isn’t.
Some will wear tassels (Tzitzit) many won’t saying the outpouring of the spirit fulfilled this. Essentially no one ( I hope ) is sacrificing animals to keep the feast days even though if they want to keep them according to the old testament this is a requirement. So really they choose convenient things to be fulfilled and others impose with an iron fist.
I could ramble on for way too long with stories, but in short this article was nice to find this morning, easily articulates many of the pitfalls. I pray more come away from the burden of man and carry God’s light yoke.
Brigitte Rosales
How do you reconcile the Zechariah 14 prophecy that we’re all going to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles? Should we at least do that?
Angela G.
Great article! Hebrew roots is a slippery slope because once you start with one aspect, it’s a slide into full legalism and all the pride or despair that comes from following or not following faithfully. I wrote a blog a couple years ago that compares it to my friends’ hobby of dumpster diving at grocery stores. https://nolongerlukewarm.com/2019/12/01/hebrew-roots-movement-an-analogy-of-priorities/
IMS
Excellently thought out and biblically precise!
Angela G.
Thank you! To God be the glory. God bless you!
R. L. Solberg
Thank you, Angela!
Sad wife
This so articulates my experience. I sit here wanting to cry….my husband started out with not celebrating Christmas, worshipping on Saturday, etc. He now treats me with contempt, has denied the Trinity, and our family has suffered so much! I don’t want to lump everyone into the same category, but I am very suspicious of people who talk of keeping Torah. I think it is the tip of the iceberg. Btw I stopped putting up a tree, etc.and have tried to be respectful, but I experience no unity in our marriage. It has been very sad for my children and I. But praise Yahweh I have had to dig into Scripture like never before and am more rooted in truth. God is good and this will end in glorifying Him.
Lorrie
I’m so sorry, Angela. It is a slippery slope.
I pray he realizes that he cannot keep the law and ceremonies as prescribed in the covenant made to Israel. That”s the key. It was never made for you and me.
Lifting your husband and your family in prayer. Continue to be grace filled and forgiving. That will overcome the legalism of the movement.
Brad
It seems to me Scripture says that those who believe in Yeshua are grafted in to Israel and become partakers with them in the covenan promises and responsibilities.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ric Joyner
Brad, how far into the Hebrew Roots are you? When talking about Hebrew Roots most people in these groups respond the way you do with similar talking points. If you are not far into it I would encourage you to get Professor Solberg’s book. I was drawn into this as Gentile in Messianic Judaism and because we were committed to studying the bible to live a praiseworthy life to God, He was able to avoid this trap and false presentation of the Gospel. Hope you do well. Professor Solberg’s book is a must read and at least get it so you can get another point of view. May the Lord bless you as you learn to live praiseworthy to Him.
Brad Snyder
Thanks Rick for your concern. I don’t actually consider my self as part of the Hebrew Roots Movement or any other movement or religion. I consider religion to be a man made thing. I have been reading and studying the Word of Yahweh since 2009. When asked what religion I am, which happens frequently, I usually reply ” I am a follower of the way”. Since Yeshua is The Way then that means I follow his teaching and example. So what he did, said, and taught is my guideline. I have not encountered any of his words that would lead me to believe I should live by any other guidelines than what he used which was his Father’s commands.
As far as the Hebrew Roots I have learned a lot about the problems inherent in the translations from Hebrew and Greek to English so any argument that relies solely on English wording I find lacking.
I hope you and yours are blessed and continue in Yahweh’s graces.
Ric Joyner
Blessings to you as well. Brad but how would a follower of the way live their life out in a practical day to day? To your point religion is indeed void if the Holy Spirit’s regeneration power is not present in the believer. To your other point we do have manuscripts from Greek or Hebrew are pretty defined today especially with 25,000 manuscripts that can be cross referenced. We know minute details of changes and thus can assess if a translation is off. NASB95, ESV, KJV are all outstanding. But I am interested if you are attempting to keep Torah as part of your daily life and would interested in how you do that since there is no temple? Thank you Brad for engaging.
Brad Snyder
Well Rick in answer to your question about keeping Torah in my daily walk. According to some counts there are 613 commandments in scripture. I don’t know personally because I have never tried to count myself. Also as you pointed out there are some that cannot be kept because of no physical temple in existence. There were always many commandments that did not apply to people like me. I can’t keep commands for women. Or Levites. Or shop keepers. Or soldiers. But there are also many that are across the board and timeless. Those I do my best to keep. The first ten given at Mt Sinia for example. But others as well that infource the broad ideas of how we are to treat our fellow humans. I keep the Sabbath. I observe the Scriptural feast days to the best of my ability. With Yeshua as our High Priest and our lives ,Or how we live I should say, as our sacrifices then the physical temple is not really a hindrance to keeping Torah as Yeshua Messiah taught. True Torah keeping is from the heart as a way of life not checking off lists as the Pharasees tried to make it.
I count many blessings in my life because I do my best to keep the parts of Torah that I can . Then I thank Yahweh every day for the blessing of his son and sacrifice for us. I ask Abba to please apply that sacrifice to me and my sin.
If the commandments were no longer in effect then we could not sin. In 1John it says sin is breaking the commandments. 1John says we decieve ourselves if we think we don’t sin. So if we need a sacrifice for our sin and Yeshua is that sacrifice then sin is still possible which would mean the commandments are still in effect.
As a way of living our best life nothing compares to following Yahweh’s Word. So that is what I attempt to do and thank him for his mercy in the times I fall short. Which is quite often.
Ric Joyner
Brad, thanks for responding. I have a few questions. Do not feel as though I am demanding for you to answer these are survey only. How long have you been in the attempt to keep Torah? Do you believe it is a requirement for all Christians? If so do you believe the “church” has failed in this area? And if so is their salvation in peril as some HR believe? Are you Jewish? Assuming no and if not how do you know how to keep Shabbos? Some Torah keepers go to Judaism to learn how do you? Thanks Brad
Brad Snyder
Well Rick let me see if I can answer your questions. I have been trying to live my life according to scriptural precepts sense Sept 2009. I believe Scripture tells us Yahweh expects everyone who says they are his to keep his commandments. Exo 20 6, Deut 7 9, John 14 5, John 15 10, 1John 2 3&4, Rev 12 17, 14 12, and 22 14. Yes the “church” has gone after traditions and not the Word of Yahweh. Salvation is something only Yahweh gives or takes away. I have no authority to say. I think Scripture is clear though that there are rewards for those who do keep the commandments. At the end of this earth when we stand before the judgment seat we are judged on our works even if our name is in the book of life. There has to be a standard for righteous judgment to occur. I don’t believe we will be judged according to religion but according to the standards set for us in the Word. What exactly will be the results of that judging I don’t know. If we are already saved what else is there. I do see a number of references in Scripture to rewards. Psa 19 11, 58 11, Mat 5 12, 16 27, 2John 1 8, Rev 22 12.
No I am not Jewish. 😊 At least not that I know of. It is hard to believe that each of us does not have some Hebrew blood in him. Being the Israelites were scattered around the world 2500 years ago the odds are we have an ancestor from at least one of the tribes. The term Jew or Jewish refers to the people living in the land of Judea during biblical times. That term does not cover all the tribes as well as Hebrew or Israelite.
In Yeshua’s ministry he makes quite a few references to how to keep Sabbath as well as many other Scriptures. One thing he never did was dispute the timing that was being used. So by knowing how the day was marked in the first century we can use the same timing today. Many of the rituals that are used by Sabbath keepers are man-made traditions and not of the Father. There are a number of very good descriptions in Scripture about how to act on His day.
I personally try to plan my week around the Sabbath so I do not need to do anything I could have done any other day to set the day apart. Then I rest, and spend time in the Word, and if the opertunity presents itself I fellowship with others. The main thing is to make the day different that all the others in honor of Yahweh having set it apart at creation.
I hope I have helped you understand my personal way of keeping faith with Yahweh and showing him I am his. Otherwise I just seek to be a servant until he comes and sets up his government here on earth.
Blessings my friend and brother in Yahweh
Ric Joyner
Brad thank you so much for this. One last question. What biblical study training do you have or are willing to share? The reason I ask this is I was saved and then immediately became entangled in the Charismatic movement. For nearly 18 or more years I went to churches and not one of them taught me biblical study principles. There are proper methodologies that are crucial to approach God’s word. Any method chosen should start with a focus that Christ is the center of the entire word of God, Is God and went to the cross willingly and as God was sinless. This allowed Him to say it is finished for all the world’s sin if people believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus today we approach God’s word from this perspective: It is His world, His rules and He does things with different groups of people throughout time. This is evident in all of scripture. Knowing this causes us to want to study the word of God to live praiseworthy to God finding His plans and purposes. This concept was given to me by Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org. It changed our lives. As we study scripture to live a praiseworthy life it caused us to question everything we were taught including Charismatic and Messianic Judaism as well as other thought programs. We realized we were just pewsitters being indoctrinated and we let it happen. We keep what is Christ and ask the Holy Spirit to teach us the rest. This is what led us away from messianic Judaism (nothing against the Jewish people even those saved) and even Hebrew Roots. But if you are willing to share your biblical training background I would be grateful. Again if you don’t wish to I totally understand.
Brad Snyder
Rick I kinda have to smile at the thought that I have a biblical training program of some sort. I have looked at a few but usually find them to be designed to lead a person to the same conclusions as the author. Which I often see things differently. Mostly I have just read and read and then read some more. Reading Scripture cover to cover at least once each year for most of my changed life. While doing that I began to see connections so I started taking notes and that became a book I call “My Little Book Of Scripture Verses By Subject Matter”. It is something I use for my own reference. I also made a Scriprure comparison book for myself that compares as many as 8 different versions of the Bible side by side. I think I have 4 or 5 books of Scripture represented in it. I did a small book of misstranslations or What I call bad word choices in scripture also for my reference. I currently use NASB study Bible but have gone through it at least three times cover to cover changing things like “The Lord” to Yahweh and “God ” to Elohim. I do this just because I like the way it reads and I feel it’s more accurate. I have written in many of my own verse links over the several years I have been using it. All of these things and others that I do or have done grew out of my reading and answering questions put to me by others. I have always said I learn more from those who disagree with me than those who agree. Some of my best study/research was to prove my own opinions right and often had the opposite effect. 🤪 I love to talk Scripture any time anywhere with anybody but I won’t argue. Been there done that and it’s not something I am proud of in my past. If someone has a different viewpoint than me I wanna hear it. But I will challenge them to shoe me in Scripture. With the resources I have created for myself I can quickly show where I get my beliefs from and then we can compare. Father Yahweh has taken a life long reading habit and guided me to use it for his purposes and for my growth in his word. All that being said I have no planned study habits other than read and share thoughts with people who also read The Word.
If you would like to share more maybe we should do so in a different manner than this comment section. I don’t want to bother others who may now be getting as much out of this as we seem to be.
If you wish my email is snidlywiplash54@gmail.com
Hopefully others will respect that this is for the benefit of Scripture discussion and not flood me with spam.
Blessings.
Ric Joyner
Brad thanks for your email. I will send an email as a test so you can see what we are doing. All of my info is on there. A bible study program is not what I am talking about. There are several scientific, or proper approaches to scripture that are helpful in studying scripture. Most people “study” the bible by a “devotional” approach. Dr. Korman shows that understanding, grammar, culture and who it is written to and why is very important. The types of study that exist currently are: Inductive bible study: Observe, Interpret, Apply. (Dallas Theo Seminary pushes this). The Jewish sages (as opposed to the rabbis) used PARDES exegesis. You will need to look it up or perhaps you already have seen it. Baruch does not like this. Exegesis is taking out of the text versus eisegesis, putting our ideas into the text. Most HBR people and charismatics are here. They insert their own pre-set thoughts into the text. There is then the Literal Historical Grammatical approach with dispensation thrown in which is another approach of “rightly dividing the word” as Paul said. All of these approaches have benefits but are missing a beginning method. A heart approach. That is looking in scripture for how to respond to God’s plans and purposes to live praiseworthy to him. Much error has come from eisegesis and a lack of knowledge of biblical study approaches. That is our ministry at biblestudycompany.com which is free to use. I also love talking about this stuff.
Brad Snyder
Sounds good I will see you on email. It’s been a pleasure and look forward to more discussion.
Michelle Hand
As a Torah observant Christian myself, I just want to thank you for handling this topic with so much thought and respect. I’ve read/watched a few people rebutting our movement and they’re not a whole lot kinder about it than we’re (sadly) often known to be. I do disagree with your first point, and I’ve done my study and research, but I don’t really want to argue about it. Your second and third points are sadly 99% accurate in most cases. It’s something I’ve been pondering a lot lately. Our movement is very passionate about truth, and that’s something I’ve enjoyed – getting to dig deep into scripture with people without being told it’s wrong to want to understand obscure passages and search out answers to questions. But, as you obviously know, we get out of balance and in our pursuit of truth often forget to love our neighbor. Jesus told the Pharisees that they tithed mint and dill and cumin and forgot the weightier matters of the law – justice and mercy. That’s convicting. I love the Torah community, but we need to get better about that.
I think one of the problems is that, because the Torah movement is exploding so quickly, many of the people you’re going to interact with might still be in their first couple years of studying the law. They (we) haven’t all learned maturity and balance and simple communication skills to avoid being total jerks to those around us.
Another issue is that people in general don’t often question their beliefs as long as they’ve got a smooth relationship with their church. So many of us who have come to the conclusion that the law applies today have done so by reading and studying on our own after being somewhat disillusioned by bad experiences in the mainstream church. Those that haven’t forgiven and made peace with the past might take out their anger via the Torah on mainstream Christians. That’s obviously not right or fair.
For whatever it’s worth, I’m trying to live above this stereotype. My family is trying. Our Torah observant congregation is struggling but also trying, with varying levels of success depending on the individual and situation.
As a side note, I do know of situations where the hurt and divisiveness is coming from the other side (though admittedly, that’s not as common). I’ve interacted with Torah observant Christians who wanted to stay in their mainstream churches to serve and not cause division but were asked to leave. In my personal experience, I’ve had people close to me continue to attack my beliefs after I asked that we simply agree to disagree and move forward. It doesn’t sound like you’re that type, but just something I wanted to put out there for you to be aware of.
I would love to see mainstream and Torah keeping congregations and individuals able to work through the disagreement and live in peace. At the end of the day, yes, I think keeping the Sabbath that God set up is important – but I also recognize that there are absolutely things that Torah keepers can learn from other Christians, that you all are doing much better than we are. Thanks for the reminder, and again, I appreciate the respectful tone you took in doing so.
Ric Joyner
Michelle this is well written and very thoughtful. I was almost snared into this movement because so many Torah Keepers go to Messianic Jewish synagogues that are mostly gentiles anyway. But that is for another story. What I think is wrong with the Torah keeping groups is the huge mistake in bible study methods. The word Torah is instruction which is the number one point brought up by them. But if so why don’t they follow the Apostles and Jesus instructions? Why do they need to bring the Torah for the land into the mix? This is truly perplexing. But why do TKs assume that the word Torah (First 5 books of Moses) applies to us under the beginnings of the new covenant? The word Torah cannot be imported from the Old Testament to the New Testament for many many reasons. And this is where the flaw starts. What do I mean? First Christ said, as the same God Who stood on Mt Sinai about the 10 statements was standing on Mt of Beatitudes teaching a whole different way to see the Torah. (compare ex 20 beginning to Matthew 5 beginning) Christ went after the root of sin which starts in the heart not what we do. The doing is an action out of the heart. Jesus told us if we love Him we will keep his commandments. Here is where the TKs make another big mistake by importing the Torah from the OT into the NT. Jesus and the disciples gave us new commands which some scholars say are 1000-1500 GREEK IMPERATIVES. Here is an example. With Christ, Peter, James and John on the MT of transfiguration Jesus revealed Who He was. But Moses and Elijah were there. A cloud descended (can we presume a parallel from Ex 20?) and God the Father said “this is my beloved son LISTEN TO HIM”. That is a Greek imperative that is a command. Just like the Torah. That is pretty clear that we were to leave the Law of Moses and the Prophets (we can still learn spiritual lessons from them) to the Laws that Christ and the Apostles gave us in the Greek Imperatives (acts 2:42) and NOW LISTEN TO HIM. This is a giant misunderstanding and I believe the enemy uses this misstep and uses people who love God to arrive at an error that can affect someone’s salvation. Here is how. How many Torah groups are doing the great commission (Matthew 28:16-18)? How many are preaching salvation as Christ showed Paul in acts 26:16-18? But they are preaching to keep the law of Moses which Galatians forbids. But we are to observe all that “I command you” because to keep the law of Moses requires a temple and there isn’t one. HE LIVES IN US. If we studied the Greek Imperatives that the Christ and the Apostles give us we will be doing this all of our life AND DOING GOD’s WILL from Mt Transfiguration. The love for God’s word is fantastic in the TK groups but I wish they had teachers that could teach proper biblical study methods on how to live praiseworthy to God instead of the same talking points which is very frustrating. TKs/HRs tend to think all Christians are dumb to the word of God and the weird part is they miss so much of what they should know. If we were to keep the law of Moses why did Christ come for the Jews and for Gentiles? That is basic logic. That is why keeping Torah nullifies the gospel. Can we see that Paul said let people be accursed that teach this? Strong language. Let us love Christ under the Law of Christ and obey His commandments He gave us by His apostles (Acts 2:42) May you be blessed and your post was outstanding. No condemnation from me anywhere. Ps didn’t Jesus say you can’t poor new wine into old wine skins? BTW I have studied HR, TKs and Judaism extensively. One of my closets friends is Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org and he agrees with me. We died to the law as Paul said in Romans.
Jay
I challenge you and anyone else that reads this comment. Look read the article and read the comments. This article is a direct attack at peoples Faith. Check peoples fruits in these comments. Many of us have come on to just defend our Faith. The article claims that people in our movement are the divisive ones. I agree with Michelle that there are those among us that are unfruitful. I would gander that most are babes in the Faith that haven’t learned to walk it out fully yet. We are all on a walk with Jesus and we all have things to work on.
Michelle Just came to say that we all have things to learn and can learn from eachother. Again I agree with Michelle that there are many of us that are still in the churches. It’s not us that are wanting to separate from the body of Christians. It’s the Christian’s that are pushing us out. I’ve been called many things by Christians but mostly told I am not a Christian. Because I don’t celebrate Christmas and want to uphold the Old Testament Laws this somehow makes me a non-Christian.
Michelle was saying that we can come together with what we have in common. We have so much more in common than our differences.
Your words:
“Can we see that Paul said let people be accursed that teach this? Strong language.”
Comments like this are unfruitful. If you believe we are accursed by God then let us be accursed. How does throwing unfruitful words and condemning us do any good?Shouldnt we pray for others and help them along and not just tell them they are accursed? What was the conclusion of Paul being tried?
Acts 5:38-39
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
These are wise words instead of throwing strong language around.
Your words:
“No condemnation from me anywhere. Ps didn’t Jesus say you can’t poor new wine into old wine skins? ”
You say a comment like this after calling us accursed. How can you claim no condemnation? See what some Christian’s don’t see is that you are attacking someone else’s faith. You spent the whole comment speaking against the Torah which we uphold. It’s like if someone came out to you and directly spoke against Jesus. If they were saying Jesus was fake and it’s all lies. Laugh at us because we still believe in the Bible and that Rome made it all up to control us. See all of us Christian’s would take offense to this also and want to help instruct them on our faith.
Your words:
“Here is how. How many Torah groups are doing the great commission (Matthew 28:16-18)? How many are preaching salvation as Christ showed Paul in acts 26:16-18? But they are preaching to keep the law of Moses which Galatians forbids.”
Your making this claim after lumping us in Messianic Jews. Wouldn’t Jews knowing our Savior be a indication that our movement is doing the great commission? Your making a general claim that can be applied to all Christian’s. How many Christian’s are preaching salvation? How many are going out and outreaching to those that are not Christians? Sure there are street preachers that do this but there are street preachers that are doing this also in our movement. Sure we don’t have a church or building. But just putting a building up is not what was commissioned. This is a passive way to reach out. There are those of us that are doing missions and reaching out to other nations. This is a false claim, we teach about all of our Faith. Jesus is still and always will be the foundation of our Faith.
I will tell you my own experience. I came to Torah Observant through reading the Bible myself. I am in no way claiming Christian’s don’t read their Bible either, just telling my story. When I started asking questions and seeking answers did others start separating themselves from me. By my own family was my faith attack. I kept defending myself and my stance with the Bible. But anytime I defended myself my family saw it as I was attacking them. For instance I don’t eat pork and consider it unclean. Then verses were thrown and me. I replied with verses then was told I am condemning them to Hell. I can do the same thing with you now. I can counter your points with the Bible but you would consider it as an attack against your believes and faith. Even though you started throwing the Sword around first after Michelle had a beautiful comment. But I digress on all of this.
I just challenge anyone reading this to do your own research. Test all things. See both sides of the arguments. Ric I know you said you did your own research and have come to your own conclusion. That is all we are asking is that everyone study both sides of the argument before dismissing it. Don’t rely on Ric studies or mine. Walk your own salvation out with fear and trembling.
Love and bless you all.
Michelle Hand
Ric, Thank you for your response. I’ll admit this isn’t the ideal forum to debate the specifics of these doctrines. If you’d like to continue the conversation in more detail feel free to look up myself and my husband Erik Hand on Facebook. We can set up a group chat that would be easier to monitor (I don’t check my email much).
In this forum I won’t argue doctrine, although I’m more than happy to dig into the chapter and verse specifics in a group chat. But I will address some of the differences between TO and mainstream Christianity that came up in your comment, because I think they are relevant to the issue of unity and might benefit others reading this as well.
I think these types of conversations are easier to have and unity easier to maintain when we try to understand where one another is coming from. What you call a mistake in Bible study methods (and truthfully, I would’ve agreed with you a few years ago) is not a mistake in the sense that we haven’t thought it through. We (I’ll take the risk of speaking for the movement, based on the majority of people I’ve interacted with, although there is a huge amount of diversity in it) simply look at it like this: books should be read from back to front and not the other way around. I spent almost 33 years in mainstream churches and did 6 years of traveling ministry with my family where we interacted with almost every denomination and non denomination. Maybe there are exceptions, but in my experience, new believers were taught to start with John or Romans, not Genesis. That’s reading back to front and is bound to result in misunderstandings. Keep in mind that Jesus and Paul probably would’ve had most or all of the Torah memorized as would most of Jesus’ audience and some of Paul’s. That’s a lot of important context that’s often being missed on our end.
Most TO Christians I know do not believe the new covenant is yet fully in play – and when it is, it will be a renewal of the Mosaic covenant. So for the sake of productive discussion it may be helpful to keep that in mind.
We believe that Jesus interpreted the existing Torah rather than adding to it. Love your neighbor and love God, for example, weren’t new, and He gave insight into how to walk that out. He was the living Word of God, after all. As such we do uphold the teachings of the New Testament (although some of us prefer not to call it that, as we don’t believe Jesus took a radical departure from what His Father had been saying for thousands of years – and couldn’t, because God doesn’t change).
I’m not sure if you’re conflating us with non-messianic Judaism in your point about listening to Jesus, because we do listen to Jesus. Including the part where He said heaven and earth would pass away before the law did. We do view His teachings from a different vantage point than mainstream believers, however.
How many TO Christians are fulfilling the great commission? Probably not enough. Which is one of the things we can look to you in the mainstream church as an example and learn from.
However, one thing the mainstream church could possibly learn from us would be taking the time to ask: what are you winning people to? It depends on the individual/group/denomination for sure, but a mistake I’ve seen far too often in mainstream is that parts of the truth will be sacrificed in the name of “reaching people”. Maybe that’s a lopsided accusation, as the ones who are doing this the most are the huge mega churches, and there are a lot of tiny mainstream churches around the world that refuse to compromise on the truth, as they know it to be. As a result, fewer people are interested, no matter what creative methods are used for outreach. And these churches may in a sense be accused of failing the Great commission too, but are they? Likewise, most TO people I know can be accused of a lot of things, but being silent about our beliefs is usually not one of them. Are we effective? Not always, and as I’ve readily confessed, that is at times our fault. But the other half of that is that we live in a world that is increasingly disinterested in biblical truth. But that doesn’t stop many of us from trying to be the hands and feet of our Messiah in this world.
If that point surprises you (because of the stereotype that we’re all aggressive and rude), it might be because the more mature members of our movement may not immediately make it known that they are TO. The man who introduced my family to the scriptural support for keeping Torah, we knew for at least a year before he even mentioned it – and it was my husband who asked; the guy didn’t bring it up. I mean after spending time around him it was obvious something was different, but he is so involved in inner city outreach and music ministry and organizing almost all of the urban Christian musicians in our city that there was so much more to talk about than just that. So you might not know right away that you’re interacting with a mature TO believer. It’s possible you would first notice them for their integrity and service and find out they were TO after getting to know them.
As you pointed out, the TO movement does have a love for God’s word, and I think that’s something mainstream Christians could learn from us – even if you don’t agree with our doctrine. When I attended mainstream churches I had so much hunger to learn, and I quickly learned that most people’s interest didn’t go much past the gospel and the Great Commission – meaning, they had little interest in taking anyone deeper than the surface. I would ask questions after services and usually people would give me a sound bite, something I’d already heard in a sermon usually, and it wouldn’t address my question directly at all. Or they would tell me to focus on the central points of the gospel and not worry about it. But what if we’re not getting the full picture of the gospel because we’re ignoring some of the things that God has said? Every word of scripture is inspired and profitable for training in righteousness, but we’re ignoring 75% of it because we think it’s not about the gospel? It’s all about the gospel. So that thought isn’t necessarily directed at you, I don’t know you nor your Bible study habits. But it’s just something I observed in mainstream church that I think could be improved upon. I’ve been so refreshed to find people in the Torah movement who can say, “I don’t know, but I’d love to study that with you to find out.”
I agree with your point about wineskins. However, I would point out He didn’t say to forget wineskins entirely and just let the wine take its own shape. That would ruin the wine. You get a new wineskin which matures along with the wine and eventually will have something very similar to the original wineskin. That might horrify many in mainstream. I remember when I was in it I had very little respect for the law. We were taught to think of the law as almost a dirty word. When we read passages like Psalm 119 which extol God’s law, as the pastor was paraphrasing they would inevitably say “word” in place of “law”. Which gave me the mental image that somehow David was actually extolling the gospels and epistles, but that’s an anachronism. Keep in mind – even if you continue to believe the law doesn’t apply today – those are still things that God said at one point in time. They’re His words, just as much as anything in John or Romans. All of the OT prophets spent a lot of time exhorting people to repent and keep the law. And when they didn’t, God responded by exiling them from the land. So at least at that time you’d have to admit God’s law mattered to Him greatly. So even if mainstream believers don’t see it as relevant today, they ought to speak of it with the same honor they would give to the rest of scripture. “Law” isn’t a dirty word.
Blessings to you. I probably won’t be checking this frequently, so like I said, if you would like to continue the discussion, especially about doctrinal specifics, feel free to look up Erik and Michelle Hand on Facebook (separate profiles).
Ric Joyner
Hi Erik and Michelle,
I totally agree with you on talking… not on writing. The back to front reading is always appropriate in any book. The Bible however is a library of 66 books and 37-40 authors over 1500 years depending on the scholar. It is amazing that each book tells us theology and doctrine.
In my length of time in and around MJ and HBR I saw errors of the teachers after I learned to study properly. Now studying properly doesn’t make me an expert or that I can’t still impose my pov onto the text. Reading into the text is an issue in HBR and other groups.
Every Christian church I have been in is very open to Jewish things and understand the root of our faith in Christ. They may not practice Judaism because that essentially is MJ and HBR.
All of us will need to decide why Christ came? Was it to put gentiles anew under the OLD COV that israel could not keep or have we died with Christ by faith as Paul said in Romans? And did Christ give us new commands called Greek imperatives that will truly show Him we love Him? He did and as like Moses, He Himself gave us these new instructions in the Gospels and through His Apostles. If we were to keep the law of Moses why did He need to die for our sin? We are to study the entire bible and the Christian churches I attended do just that but not with a Jewish context. But they are open. I will see about connecting with you guys for a convo! Thanks for the invite.
Geneva Wilkerson
Hi! Great article! But…😇I’m always seeing teachers skirt issues around “ avoiding Torah observance in order to remain genuine in the faith”. one of those issues is Biblical traditions. If we are left to our own devices we must assimilate with whatever believers we fellowship with in order to be part of a body. Do you realize how much corruption is in the modern church today? I always considered God somewhat schizophrenic when it came to trusting in Him, especially when i was told by honorable and anointed non Torah based teachers & preachers, to dump the traditions OF the old testament. I have often said in the past, that whatever Biblical traditions you forsake will be replaced by something else. God had a good idea about maintaining the family unit and taking care of widows and orphans. BIBLICAL TRADITIONS! with helpful Jewish guides😇
ric joyner
Geneva is this in answer to my response? Or are you focused on engaging prof solberg?
Ric Joyner
Michelle, I read your extensive post. I did try to contact Erik on Messenger and nothing was returned. What I read from you is a ton of “we got this more than the church does” and little of your discussion (well written) did not deal with the false teaching of TOs that I addressed in my post. I was actually surprised with the excuse making. I will try another way. Have you seen the polygamy that is growing in this cult? Some Torah keepers will say the Torah does not prevent polygamy. If you are ok with this then no problem. However the model from Christ is one man and one woman. It is a picture of the church. This is what is so striking. Read the posts from other people on this site of other groups (it may not be yours) but soon could be that are breaking up families. I just had an exchange with Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org who is a rabbinically trained, a Jewish man who is a Christian lives in Israel and has a Ph.D. He said straight up. “Ric there is no such thing as Torah-Keeping not even orthodox Jews believe that. The orthodox Jews have an oral Torah they keep which is not the word of God. What baffles me is that Romans 3-8 Eph 2-4 and Galatians should deal a death blow to this false teaching. But somehow it does not. Why? Deception. May the Lord be with you and your family and I hope His Grace in our Lord Jesus Christ helps you see through this morass of bad doctrine. The TOs bible study methods are poor. They love the word but are more interested for the most part in the minutiae of Hebrew words, keeping festivals like Jews and falsely practicing Judaism.
Anonymous
Search Polygamy in this article. https://eliyah.com/marriage-divorce-remarriage/
Also, if we consider Yahushua’s admonition to get back to the way it was in the beginning, it wouldn’t be too difficult to see why many interpret them as outright forbidding polygamy. Yahushua wants us to get back to the way things were when there was one man, one woman producing a seed of Elohim. We should remember that there is about a 50/50 chance of a child being born a boy or a girl. For this reason, there is usually an equal number of men and women in society. In the United States, 49.12% of the population is male and 50.88% of the population is female (2002 data). If we lived in a society where there were significantly more women than men, I could see some legitimacy for a man having more than one wife rather than multitudes of women being sentenced to a life of celibacy. This was often the case in ancient times because of so many men dying in various wars. But if we live in a society where the number of men are nearly the same as the number of women, a man marrying one wife could potentially prevent another man from producing a seed of Elohim. It seems that these things should be taken into consideration as well.
I do realize that Yahushua was not outright condemning polygamy in Matthew 19 and related verses, so I would stop short of calling it a sin either way. But it is evident by His statements that unless a man understands the difference between adultery and polygamy, he could find himself in a “marriage” that he considers to be polygamous—but actually is adulterous in Yahweh’s eyes. His statements and the examples seen in scripture demonstrate the importance of a man not afflicting his first wife by taking on a second wife against her will. We are called to love our wives, not give them occasion for stumbling or afflict them.
William
Matthew 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until Heaven and Earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from Torah – not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvah and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and the P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven!”
So the BIG question. Has Heaven and Earth passed away, or are we still here? Last I knew, I’m still kickin’.
Now I not claiming to be a smart person but, that sounds pretty straight forward.
Also John 5:41-47 ” I don’t collect praise from men, but I do know you people – I know that you have no love for God in you! I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t accept me; if someone else comes in his own name, him you will accept. How can you trust? You’re busy collecting praise from each other, instead of seeking praise from God only. But don’t think that it is I who will be your accuser before the Father. Do you know who will accuse you? Moses, the very one you have counted on! For if you really believed Moses, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. But if you don’t believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
All this from the mouth of Jesus. The One you worship on Sunday. Speaking of that…. Look up the Council of Leodicea Canon 29. Are y’all sure that you are even worshipping the One true God? I would truly be saddened to hear the words “I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!
Now have newer things come into place? Absolutely! THEY’VE BEEN BUILT ON BETTER PROMISES, not a completely new Gospel. If that were so then God would be a liar. I think we can all agree that He’s definitely not! So please let’s stop competing to be the better “know it all” and TRUST in the One who does!
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, William! The BIG question is: has one iota or dot of the law changed? For example, are God’s people still required to sacrifice a bull and two goats on Yom Kippur for their sins? I’m not asking if that is happening, because, of course, it can’t happen without a temple. I’m asking if the law’s requirement for a blood sacrifice of sin every year is still in effect. Or has that requirement “passed from the law” because of the sacrifice of Jesus, which was “once for all” (Heb 10:10)?
Anonymous
Jeremiah 33:17 – For thus says YAHWEH: `David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18 – `nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’
Do you get that? In the same way David will never lack a man to sit on the throne, the Levites will never lack a man to “offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.”
As sure as Yahweh’s covenant with David that of his Seed every nation would look to Him as being a King– Yahushua is the Seed of David– in the same way, His covenant with Levi is solid. And, in fact, He says this:
Jeremiah 33:19 – And the word of YAHWEH came to Jeremiah, saying,
20 – Thus says YAHWEH: `If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season,
21 – `then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
Jeremiah 33:22 – `As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’
So, this is FOREVER, brothers. Put it this way: As long as day and night are happening, Levites will be His priests.
In fact, in the future times, it says:
Ezekiel 44:15 – But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood, says the Master YAHWEH.
This is future. This has never happened. Read it– Ezekiel 40 to the end.
Ezekiel 44:16 – They shall enter My sanctuary, and they shall come near My table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge.
And so, Yahweh’s covenant with Levi still stands. It is just that the Law which had forbidden an outsider from coming and entering this temple has been set aside to allow for the Son of Judah, the priestly King, to enter in the holy of holies, take residence there, make intercession for us and rule on the earth.
And He does not need to enter that holy of holies once a year with some other blood. He enters that holy of holies with His own blood. And so, this covenant with Levi is not going anywhere.
https://eliyah.com/archives/the-book-of-hebrews-teaches-torah-law-observance-part-1-2013/
Can you call in to eliyah.com’s sabbath broadcast and talk with him one day?
Lorrie
Hi William,
Mankind is still kinkin’! Praising Him for that and am so grateful for Pastor Solberg’s biblical response to your question. Placing the Word in it’s timeline and noting the audience is important.
If I may make a suggestion to study the phrase “heaven and earth” throughout Scripture. Note it’s context relating to the OT system. God the Father tabernacled with His chosen people through the temple, priests and the Law. It was the heavenly realm on earth for those who followed.
Understanding that the meaning may be deeper than two locations, one spiritual and terrestrial, helped me a great deal.
Kyle
I think I will take God’s word over man’s traditions.
Revelation 21:1-4 (compare, these are only a few: Isaiah 57, 65-66, Ezekiel 37-48, Isaiah 25:6-9 ->1 Corth 15:25-27 -> Isaiah 35:10, 51:11
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Isaiah 65:17-19…Isaiah 66:17…Isaiah 66:22-24…Leviticus 19:33-34…Numbers 15:15-16…Deuteronomy 16:11-12…Ezekiel 47:21-23…Ephesians 2:11-13…Ephesians 3:6…Galatians 3:28-29
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Leah
****Dont follow the way of the world because that way leads to death and darkness, the law is light and love for all humanity and keeping the torah is not evil Nor wrong, thats why the Ruah Hakodesh was given to helps us walk in light, OR WHAT EVIL OR WRONG IS IN loving others and trying our best to obey the father and walk like the messiah?!
Your post is misleading and wrong
!!!!
R. L. Solberg
Yes! Paul illuminates the truth that love is at the core of the law. The love command—“love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18)—is at the heart of the law of Christ: “Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” (Gal 6:2; see also 1 Cor 9:20–21). James calls the command to love your neighbor as yourself the royal law: “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing right” (James 2:8).
The law has always pointed to Jesus Christ: “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God” (Rom 10:4). The Law of Moses is something humans are incapable of keeping (Gal 3:10). We cannot meet the demands of the law in our own power (Gal 3:24; Rom 8:4; 10:4). Our Savior, the Lord Jesus, fulfilled the law perfectly and provided His righteousness in exchange for our sin (see Matt 5:17). (See this article.)
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Leah,
I pray you will not get sucked into the Torah Keeping Group. They are not focused on Christ as Rob nicely said. Jesus gave us a new covenant and gave Himself for our sin thus fulfilled the OC and said He came to fulfill. He gave us new commandments. He said in John 14:15 to follow those. He rolled up the OC including Torah into the new commandments. There were 613 in the Torah and Moses gave those. Christ came as God, the same God on Mt Sinai correct? If so then He prophesied through His prophets the Seed and the Messiah was to come. He came. He paid the sin debt all of us owed, both Jews and Gentiles. Now He told us to obey His commands if we love Him. He gave us 1642 Greek Imperatives. Those are commands. The Hebrew imperatives are the Torah. The New Covenant is what we should follow by the Holy Spirit given to us if we are born again. Will we take up our cross and follow Him as He said to do or Moses? Do not be duped from these people. Follow the Messiah the One Who has come! Do not be deceived.
Anonymous
I asked this many times and never got a reply. When Yahushua told us to repent, what are we repenting of if not disobeying Torah?
R. L. Solberg
We are to repent of our sin, Anonymous! And, as I’m sure you’re aware, sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses, because that would mean that Adam and Eve never sinned. In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom 5:13, see also Ga; 3:19).
Blessings, Rob
Anonymous
You’re right when you say sin was in the world prior to Moses. The law was given to make sin ‘exceedingly sinful’. Another way of saying this would be the law was given to make sin ‘obvious’. Knowing that, why would anyone disobey the law? The law makes sin ‘exceedingly sinful’.
Ric Joyner
anonymous define your comment “why would anyone disobey the law?” What laws are you speaking about? All of the Torah? The prophets? New Testament through our Creator and His 12 disciples? Define pls.
IMS
Sadly, I have only met two people in HRM/TO, that keep the summed up Law (Love God and Love People) the rest, don’t just fail, they sin in the way they treat people, thus breaking the whole Law…
Ric Joyner
Well said. And very true
Avram Yehoshua
You know, if we didn’t have Church History, which literally tells us that for the first 90 years AFTER the Resurrection, ALL Christians kept both the Sabbath and Passover (cf. 1st Cor. 5:6-8), your teaching, RL might make some sense. See my article The Lord’s Day–Sunday? Also, what do you do, how do you reconcile what Yeshua/Jesus says about Mosaic Law (Mt. 5:17-19), that He did NOT come to do away with the Law, and that it will last until there are no more Heavens and Earth, and that ANYONE who breaks the least of the commandments of Moses will be LEAST in His Kingdom, which Kingdom didn’t begin until AFTER the Resurrection, in Acts Two?
Does fulfill mean to do away with, as the Church teaches? Here’s what Jesus thought of His use of fulfill: “Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” (Luke 24:44 NKJV) He fulfilled what the Law speaks about a coming Messiah (e.g. Dt. 18:18-19), by just showing up. Of course, the Law and the Prophets speak of Him dying for us and healing Israel, etc. This is what fulfill means according to Jesus, and it doesn’t do away with the Law, which as Paul says, shows us what is sin (Romans 3:20b). The Law has its place in the life of every Christian; it’s just not the place of salvation, but once saved, does it matter if we sin (cf. Rom. 6:1-3f.). Torah is Paul’s holy Standard for what is sin and what God requires of every Christian (e.g. the Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel and the Mosaic Dietary laws).
Check out my book on Acts 15, which especially deals with Mosaic Law, the new Gentile Christian, and the four rules of James (v. 20). It’s The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21.
You might also be amused with my two-page Quiz: Take the Quiz! Five Quick Questions about the New Testament.
Let me know what you think, RL, AFTER you’ve at least read a few pages from my book, and after you’ve taken the Quiz.
Blessings from Above!
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The Seed of Abraham at http://www.seedofabraham.net
R. L. Solberg
Shalom, Avram!
The fact that many Christians, especially Jewish followers of Jesus, kept both the Sabbath and Passover does not conflict with my position on Hebrew Roots, which is that the Mosaic rituals, such as Sabbath, Torah feasts, kosher diet, circumcision, etc. are permitted but not required of Christ followers. I have not suggested that those things were abolished or forbidden or prohibited in any way. In fact, both Jesus and the authors of the NT seem to presume that Jewish followers of Jesus will go right on keeping them. So for followers of Jesus today who want to keep those rituals, go for it. But keep in mind that they do not make us any more righteous in the eyes of God. There’s not a single thing that we can do to add to the righteousness that is ours through faith in Jesus! So those Mosaic rituals, while permitted, are not required of Christians. And it’s when folks claim that those rituals are obligatory for all followers of Jesus, and that not doing them is sinful and disobedient, that’s when they veer into heresy and are challenging the sufficiency of Christ.
As for your question regarding Matt 5:17-20, you actually answered it yourself! In Matt 5, when Jesus says “until all has been accomplished” what is He talking about? The answer is right there in the passage you quoted from Luke 24. The resurrected Jesus said to His disciples: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled . . . You are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:44, 48). In other words, the things Jesus said He would accomplish He accomplished, and His disciples were witnesses to it! The law was fulfilled in the sense in which Jesus meant it in Matt 5.
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Rob,
I would go further than you did on the fulfillment. The Lord paid our sin debt under the Law for both Adam and Eve (sinless) and for those of us born under sin. He also fulfilled the Old Covenant law knowing there would be no temple. He also gave his followers @1642 new laws called Greek imperatives that Avram does not mention. He also fulfilled the TANAK because He came as prophesied. This comment from Avram is false: Snip>which literally tells us that for the first 90 years AFTER the Resurrection, ALL Christians kept both the Sabbath and Passover <unsnip. He uses ALL and that can't be proven. In fact, we begin to see people meeting on the Lord's day because it was the day the Lord was resurrected. Acts 20:17-FF. The church does not teach people how to break the law they teach people to obey the Law of Christ which is what Paul did. Torah groups teach people to keep Torah like Judaism. This is indeed as you said a heresy. It puts people under bondage to the "keeping of the torah" rather the spirit of the Torah which was evident in the passages laid out in Matthew 5. Rob thank you for your kind comment.
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
You wrote two replies and I’ll try and answer both of them here. Your concept of anyone, Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, being able to keep say, the 7th day Sabbath or Passover, is not correct because it’s built upon a false premise: that Christians don’t have to walk like Jesus did, because somehow, His death invalidated Mosaic Law for His followers, even though He states otherwise in many places, like Mt. 5:17-19, Mark 2:27-28, and through His Apostles, like Paul, who spoke of the Law being holy, just and good, etc. (Rom. 7:7, 21, 14; 1st Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1). In the last Scripture reference Paul tells his Corinthians to imitate Him as He imitated Christ. Now, if Jesus is the SAME yesterday, TODAY and forever (Heb. 13:8), how can Paul be imitating Jesus by keeping Sunday, Easter and Xmas??? That’s not a rhetorical question, Rob…please think about it, and the fact the Jesus’ death did not nullify Torah. He came to redeem Israel, not do away with God’s holy Law, which reveals what is sin and what is pleasing to God the Father, like keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy and celebrating Passover (cf. Rom. 3:20b). Keeping God’s days and ways are not a suggestion AND I find nowhere in Scripture where anyone says that Sunday has replaced God’s holy Sabbath day (cf. Gen. 2:1-3). Do you?
The only Scripture that speaks of “the Lord’s Day” is Rev. 1:10, and there is no equation in Scripture that says that the Lord’s Day is Sunday. That idea, that the Lord’s Day is Sunday, came from the Roman Catholic Church.
Rob, you said that I couldn’t prove that ALL Christians kept the Sabbath, etc., up until 120 AD, when Pope Sixtus threw out Mosaic Law and brought in Sunday and Easter, but I can. It’s very easy, and if you’ll take the time to read my article, The Lord’s Day–Sunday? you’ll see that both New Testament Scripture and Church History reveal that all Christians kept the Sabbath and Passover, etc., up until 120 AD. Then there was a split between Rome and Asia Minor, which kept Passover, not because it was a nice thing to do, BUT all the Christians there kept Passover because that’s how they were taught by the Apostles John and Philip. There’s actually a letter from Polycrates that literally speaks of this, with “all the bishops” of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey; Paul’s initial evangelical stomping grounds) at the conference, and all of them kept the “rituals” of the Jews, as you call it.
Now, you can continue to argue with me and say that you know things that are only your opinion, of you can choose to read the article, for I sense that you didn’t “Take the Quiz” as I suggested to you, nor read the Intro to my book on Acts 15:20-21. Such a shame! You have the opportunity to seriously be challenged by this, and I hope you take it. Then we can talk. I have given you more than enough to whet your appetite…that is if you truly hunger and thirst for Jesus and His Ways, but I sense that you’re set in your ways, so much so that you won’t take the time to read anything I’ve offered to you.
Also, keeping all the rules/laws of Moses that apply to any one person has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or “more righteousness,” but with understanding just how God desires for us to walk out our faith in His Son. You cannot show me anywhere in the New Testament where anyone says that Sunday replaced the Sabbath…because of the Resurrection or anything else. So, why do you follow Rome in Her days and ways that are contrary to the Lord’s? It was She who gave you Sunday, Easter, Xmas, and the eating of unclean animals, in contradistinction to your Savior who never spoke of Sunday, Easter or Xmas, and IF He ate a piece of bacon, He would have been a sinner. How is it that you can eat pig and not be sinning?
There is a lot here, Rob, and if you’re open, which I don’t think you are, but if you are open you will be scripturally challenged and persuaded in a way you have not known before.
Please read the articles and then we can talk. If you’re not going to read them, then there is no need for us to continue to dialogue.
Sincerely,
Avram
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, Avram. I agree that Scripture does not say that Sunday has replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. That’s not a claim I make.
What I believe the NT teaches is that, because of the death and resurrection of Christ, the Law of Moses is not binding on Christians today (Gal 3:24-25). It was binding on Jesus (Gal 4:4-5), and He lived it out perfectly (Eph 5:27; 1 Pet 1:19), thereby fulfilling it and ushering in God’s New Covenant. And our righteousness does not come from the law, it comes from faith in Jesus (Gal 2:16 ff.). We do not have a temple as the Mosaic law required, we are a temple (1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:21). We do not have a Levitical priesthood as the law required, we are a priesthood (1 Pet 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6). We do not make blood sacrifices to atone for our sins every year on Yom Kippur because Jesus was our sacrifice “once for all” (Heb 10:10), and therefore, “there is no longer any offering for sin.” (Heb 10:18). So it’s an unbiblical position to suggest that followers of Jesus are under the Mosaic law. Especially Gentile believers, who were never under the law in the first place!
One other thing. You made an untrue claim about me in your reply: “you said that I couldn’t prove that ALL Christians kept the Sabbath, etc….” But that’s not what I said at all. I said, “The fact that many Christians, especially Jewish followers of Jesus, kept both the Sabbath and Passover does not conflict with my position on Hebrew Roots.” Just wanted to correct the record.
Shalom!
Ric Joyner
To further explain a false gospel is being presented by Avram. Get saved through Christ now keep the Torah. False teaching. Jesus instituted a new covenant for the Jewish people and included Gentiles in the NC. The Gospel is laid out here. 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Ric Joyner
Avram who are you addressing?
Avram Yehoshua
I thought I was addressing Rob, but it seems I was addressing you. What I “wrote to Rob” certainly pertains to you, Ric. I’ve also specifically address a post to you.
Avram
Ric Joyner
First, thanks for the clarification. What I see a lot from Hrm is what I see in your posts. Long lengthy talking points that are just pieced together nonsense and twisted history. (Not trying to be offensive)
Second, The truth of scripture doesn’t matter in these long posts except using scripture to eisgesis to keep Torah which is the focal point. That is false teaching. Passover is coming up. Passover is about the blood on the doorposts and Christ fulfilled scripture by being the passover lamb and the blood on the cross. As unleavened bread is celebrated he fulfilled this as well by being sin for us. As a Gentile Christian and have been around Jesus believers who were in hrm I was trained well in torah keeping which is current jewish practices. But no more. Our eyes are on Christ to live praiseworthy to God and preach the Gospel acts 16:16-18. Blessings to you.
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
I can understand your attitude in casting my thoughts away with “talking points that are just pieced together nonsense and twisted history,” for you have been through the Hebrew Roots Movement, which is a heretical movement, but I’m not part of them, and what the Lord has given me is nothing that you have seen. It’s a shame you cannot or will not see that.
You speak of my post as eisgesis (sic: eisegesis), but you don’t present anything I’ve written as such. It’s very easy to swat something away and say it’s wrong and not worth your time, but haven’t you done to me what you think is wrong with the HRM? Also, the Scriptures I’ve used have not been taken out of context, but are the true understanding of God’s Word, yet all you’ve done is say I’m wrong. Great way to prove your point, Ric! And it’s a great way to prove my point about you: you are stuck in Rome’s tradition of anti-Mosaic Law theology and you think it pristine and of God. How are you different from the Pharisees, who thought that their views were right, even when God’s Word stood in front of them?
Blessings from Above, Ric,
Avram
The SeedofAbraham.net
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
You are right. Jesus instituted the New Covenant for both Jew and Gentile, but have you never read the only place in the Old Testament where the term “New Covenant” is literally mentioned? If you had you might not have been so quick to condemn me (“false gospel is being presented by Avram”). God spoke through the Prophet Jeremiah and said,
““Behold! The days are coming!” says Yahveh, When I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah! Not according to the Covenant that I made with their Fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My Covenant which they broke, though I was a Husband to them,” says Yahveh. But THIS is the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days,” says Yahveh: “I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR MINDS, and I WILL WRITE IT ON THEIR HEARTS, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know Yahveh!,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” says Yahveh. “For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The Hebrew word for “Law,” as in “I will put My Law in their minds,” is Torah, and as I believe, Rob knows, Torah is Hebrew for Mosaic Law (not just the Ten). This understanding, that part of God’s intention in giving Israel the New Covenant, is that He would write His Torah on their hearts and mind, is twice confirmed by the Author of Hebrews, who quoted Jeremiah, saying:
“For this is the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days,” says Yahveh: “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people!” (Hebrews 8:10)
““This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days,” says Yahveh: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”” (Hebrews 10:16)
Your understanding, of the place of Mosaic Law in the life of every Christian, is based on Rome’s anti-Mosaic Law theology. That is where you get that tradition from. It’s certainly not from the New Testament, even though I imagine that you have a few Scriptures that you think conceptually nullify what I’ve just written, BUT how can you deal with what I’ve just shown you? Is Jeremiah wrong? Is the Author of Hebrews wrong? Perhaps, just perhaps, you’re wrong, Ric.
IF you want to know what our faith walk in God’s Son should be, I would ask you to read these:
1. The Feasts of Israel and the Church
2. Law 102
3. The Lord’s Day–Sunday?
4. The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21
If you will read those four things, I think you will be persuaded, not by me, but by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus wants all His followers to actually walk out their faith in Him the way He did; by keeping all the rules or laws of Moses that apply to any one Christian (e.g. there are laws that apply to only women; Lev. 12:1f.).
It’s not a false Gospel I preach and teach, but the true Gospel of the Apostles. There’s no “smoke and mirrors” here; just the pure, unadulterated New Testament Word of God. Once saved, does it matter if you sin? (see Rom. 6:1-3) Tell me Rob, what is Paul’s specific New Testament definition of sin. If you can, you’re half-way out of the Catholic Pit of Tradition that nullifies God’s Word, that you’re in.
Blessings from Above,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram,
Always pointing to the Torah not to Christ I see. “Yes, Christ but we all have to keep Torah too.” And that is the false Gospel and twisting Scripture to fit this narrative which is false teaching. Avram the problem with engaging with the many Torah Keepers is it is repeat rinse, repeat rinse. We are under a new covenant as we have a new High Priest. I am not Jewish and since Our Lord Jesus Christ opened the door through His sacrifice I am not going to practice judaism. That takes my eyes off of Christ. The feasts are fulfilled or will have the fulfillment in Christ Jesus. I have no prob speaking to you vs testing. But rinsing the same arguments over and over is tiring. Rob has done an outstanding job laying this out here and in his book. Buy the book and watch his videos. Blessings.
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Ric,
Judaism? Who mentioned Judaism? Keeping Torah Jesus’ Way is not Judaism, Ric, and when you truly realize that Jesus kept Torah and was never legalistic about it, you might begin to imagine that we can do the same thing, by His Spirit, and not lose sight of the Master. Your arguments are rather shallow, Ric. I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but just as an observation. Also, you have not entered into a dialogue with me, but with some straw HR man : )
By all means! Keep your eyes on the Torah observant Jesus you say you are following.
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
Signing off from our “rinse and repeat,” “dialogue,” Ric.
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Correction: having been around Jewish believers not Jesus believers. Thanks
Ric Joyner
Acts 26:16-18
Avram Yehoshua
LOL! Revelation 12:17; 14:12
Ric Joyner
Avram, in my first posts I countered your claims. The rome thing is an HRM talking point and a go to and TK, HRM use the same language you do. If at some point you wish we can visit in a call. But speaking on here takes to long and texts can be misinterpreted. A great eisegesis of your posts is Matthew 5 which I already addressed. Ps the Rome thing is cringe. Hrm and TKs use anti church rhetoric like you do. It again is strawman. 🥴😊Blessings
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Ric, you speak of countering my claims and that HRM speaks of Rome. Well, if I were your teacher in Sunday School, I would have to give you an “F” because you never countered my claims. It’s very sad that you think so, and also, that you think following the Pope is the Way to follow Jesus. Again, where does anyone speak of Sunday replacing the Sabbath, a much needed statement for the NT if the Sabbath is no more. Your “ability for anyone to keep it, but not necessary,” is also not found in the NT. You are steeped in Rome’s theology, which is anti-Christ. Also, as for Adam and Eve sinning, and so you can disregard Mosaic Law, have you never read what Jesus said about the Gentiles becoming part of Israel? (John 10:6) And have you never read what Paul spoke about the Gentile being grafted into ISRAEL? (Rom. 11:11f.; Eph. 2:11f.) If the Gentiles are part of Israel, how is it that they don’t have to keep Israel’s Mosaic Law?
Blessings from Above, Ric, as you turn to your own theology on Mosaic Law. Also, you never answered my question about Paul’s specific definition of sin. It’s at Rom 3:20b. Read it and be in shock. Also, the Savior’s Hebrew name is Yeshua (there is no Hebrew name of Yahshua or Yehashua, and I am not HR).
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Breaking my own rule of li g posts but we need a Sunday school class. 😊Do you believe that after Christ came and instituted the New Covenant and He is our new high priest that believers in Christ who are born again and saved that we are to keep Torah today like the Jews? Especially since there is no temple which encompasses 247 laws as explained by my dear friend Dr Baruch Korman of loveIsrael.org. “There is no such thing as Torah Keeping”. If yes then that is heresy. Can we learn lessons from Torah? Oh yes! Do you believe that when Christ instructed His disciples to obey His commands that The Lord Jesus Christ was the same God on Mt Sinai in Exodus making a new covenant (Mosaic) and Moses was His apostle? (Shalakim) sp?). If so then we move to the “Prophet, like me (Moses) to come”. Jesus spoke to the disciples in the same manner as Moses and hand picked them and spoke to them as Moses in numbers 12. He completed (fulfilled) the prophesy for a NC. (Jeremiah) Did not Christ say follow me? Or was it to follow Moses? And where to? The cross, which defeated sin and death through Christ’s perfect sacrifice and gave us peace with God because of fulfillment defeating sin. John 20:21. Do you believe Christ was 100% God and, through the miraculous virgin birth, was 100% man without sin with both natures so He could be the perfect sacrificial lamb? If not heresy. Then on the mount of transfiguration God the Father said This is my beloved Son (the One to come, the Seed, the Messiah) with Moses (Law) and Elijah (prophets) there and This is my beloved Son, now listen to Him”. In Matthew 5 He did not come to abolish but to fulfill which is He died (as stated prior to you) for our sin debt (law) to God and cane in person which fulfilled both the law prophets. The argument with those whi say we are to keep Torah is misdirection. They focus on the law yet there is much more to the fulfillment as our fun time is mentioning. Lastly He said if you love me obey my commands. He gave us 1642 new Greek imperatives (commands) through His apostles like He did with Moses (613 hebrew imperatives) which both Jew and Gentiles can walk in with the power of the Holy Spirit. Or do you believe the false teaching that Jesus wishes us to “keep” torah because Christ did not fulfill it. What was the cross for? I now have fulfilled my Sunday school. Therefore Fs go to people who teach others Christ did not fulfill the OC by His blood and resurrection. Fs go to people who twist scripture and put people in bondage practicing Judaism as fulfilling the Torah. Fs go to people who bring up rome when it is not part of the convo. Fs go to people who say we are to keep the law of Moses and not the law of Christ. Fs go to people who practice the Torah today in an improper way… by works not by faith Romans 9:30-ff.
Anonymous
Looks like my comment got deleted accidentally, so I’ll ask again. When Yahushua told us to repent, what are we repenting of if not disobeying Torah?
R. L. Solberg
I replied to that comment. Maybe it’s getting lost in the shuffle? Here it is again: We are to repent of our sin, Anonymous! And, as I’m sure you’re aware, sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses, because that would mean that Adam and Eve never sinned. In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom 5:13, see also Ga; 3:19).
Blessings, Rob
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
I see you use Adam and Eve to skirt around Mosaic Law and God’s rules of what is sin for Israel. As I noted above, Gentiles are part of Israel, and so what God gave to Israel as sin, and also, how He desired for them to live (e.g. the Feasts of Israel), apply to Gentiles as part of Israel, or am I missing something here. I think it’s call progressive revelation. I hope you’ve read my replies to Ric, for they do pertain to you too, and I hope you can begin to answer them better than Ric who just shooed me away as one does a pesky fly. You need to explain how Jer. 31:33 apply in the New Covenant to Christians/Gentiles, as God speaks of placing Torah, not just the Ten, upon our hearts and mind; confirmed by Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16. Also, how every Christian kept the 7th day Sabbath and Passover, among other Mosaic Law rules, until Rome threw out Mosaic Law in 120 AD and brought in Sunday and Easter and an anti-Mosaic Law theology, based on God’s replacing the Jews, “who rejected Jesus,” with the Gentiles. Great theology, if one doesn’t have a Bible, but you do, Rob, and so I’m waiting to see how you justify Rome’s anti-Mosaic Law tradition, especially as “the Lord’s Day” never has anything in the NT equating it with Sunday. That too is of Rome.
Yes, sin was in the world before Mt. Sinai, but after Sinai it became more specific (Rom. 3:20b), as the Apostle Paul tells his Gentile Christians in Rome. After Sinai, one cannot revert back to Adam and Eve and say, “that’s all there is folks! Nothing to see here! Move along!” Especially as Gentiles are PART of Israel (Jn. 10:16; Rom. 11:11f.; Eph. 2:11f.).
Please read one or two of the articles that I’ve placed on this forum for Ric and you’ll see that your theological stand on Mosaic Law is not as solid as you think. By the way, I am not Hebrew Roots, as I believe that they (perhaps not every one of them) are a heretical movement due to a number of serious errors, one of which that comes to mind is that if you don’t say their particular name for the Messiah, whatever it may be in whatever congregation one is at, then you’re not saved, which is utter nonsense, as if no Christian before them, who never heard of their name for the Messiah, was saved because they used the name of Jesus. Satan loves to stir the Pot!, but our Lord if Faithful (John 7:31-32).
Blessings from Above, Rob, and looking forward to a real dialogue with you, that is, if you’re up to it,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Lorrie
Studying the return of Christ in AD70 to bring judgment to apostate Israel and deliver/save believing Israel and grafted gentiles from the tribulation of that time.
Christ fulfilled the Law. When Christ came in judgment, He put all enemies under His feet and handed the Kingdom over to God.
Christ is the Savior of all mankind. The Kingdom began with those first century believers and continues today some 2000 years. The Kingdom is spiritual and everlasting. We have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
R. L. Solberg
Well, setting aside the equivocal use of the word Israel: Are Gentiles who believe in Jesus grafted into Israel? Of course! But even Israel is not under the Law of Moses anymore. Why? Because the law that God gave to the ancient nation of Israel at Mount Sinai is no longer in effect. Galatians 3:24-25 teaches that before Jesus came, God’s people were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So the Law of Moses was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that Jesus has come, God’s people are no longer under the Mosaic law!
As for Jer 31 and the New Covenant language, remember that at the time of that prophecy, Israel was a divided nation. Yet God promised his new covenant to “the House of Israel and the House of Judah,” referring to the entirety of His people. And as we just discussed, Gentiles were later grafted/adopted into His family under said New Covenant, thereby fulfilling God’s promise to Abraham that in him “all the families of the Earth will be blessed” (Gen 12:3)! And under the New Covenant, God’s family is not bound by the Mosaic law (See Gal 3:24-25 above). This is why after His resurrection, Jesus gave a brand new command not found in the Torah: We are to make disciples of all nations (Matt 28:19-20) and baptize them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit! That’s a groundbreaking new command. The ancient nation of Israel was never commanded to make disciples of all nations. Rather they were set apart from all the other nations. Blessings!
Ric Joyner
Outstanding Rob!
Anonymous
Do you agree we are called to repent from disobeying Torah because it is also sin?
When you say “sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses,” it means disobeying Torah is a subset of sin and included in the definition sin.
R. L. Solberg
Disobeying the law of Moses was most definitely a sin for those who were under the Law of Moses. But, of course, we’re each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. And the ceremonial/ritual Mosaic commands do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required.) “We are released from the Law of Moses, having died with Christ to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6). Shalom!
Anonymous
At least we agree, before Yahushua died, he taught us to repent from disobeying Torah.
The next step is showing when Yahushua changed his meaning of repent to exclude disobeying Torah.
Unbelievers are condemned because they disobey Torah, but after repenting, you say believers are allowed to disobey Torah.
Unbelievers are condemned for eating pork, but after repenting of eating pork, they are allowed to eat pork.
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Rob,
You don’t seem to understand what being “under the Law” and being in the New Covenant mean, so let me explain it to you. Being “under the Law” means that the Law can only condemn a person, for all have sinned, and that person cannot use that to justify himself before God. Being “in Christ” one is not under the Law because to be “in Christ” one has to die to self and is Born Again. The Law’s ability to condemn stops at death, and so when one is baptized in water, which among other things means, that one has died to self, the Law cannot condemn that person anymore BUT the Glory of the Law is that the Law is still God’s holy Standard. When one sins now the Law cannot condemn us, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t follow the Law as God’s divine Guideline for how He wants us to walk out our faith in His Son. One plus one equals two. Now, with the Holy Spirit and our new Life in Christ, as new creatures, we can keep the Law from the inside-out, just as Jesus did when He was in Israel 2,000 years ago. One is not free when one sins, and the only way we can fully know what sin is, is by Torah/Mosaic Law, as the Apostle Paul himself states:
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20 NKJV)
The first phrase deals with those trying to justify themselves by keeping the Law: it cannot be done because we are sinful, carnal creatures. We must be changed, and this is where being Born Again comes in, but once saved, does it matter if we sin? Of course it does (Rom. 6:1-3f.).
The second part of the sentence speaks of Christian lifestyle. “For by the Law is the knowledge of sin” and actually, the Greek word that Paul uses for knowledge, gnosis, has a prefix of “epi,” and so the phrase should read in English, “For by the Law is the FULL Knowledge of sin. Christians, like yourself, have some knowledge of sin (don’t steal; love God, etc.), but because Torah has been denigrated by the Church as “not for Christians,” Christians don’t realize that God wants them to keep the Sabbath day holy, and the Feasts of Israel, and not to eat unclean animals like the pig. “For by the Law is the Full Knowledge of sin.” Keeping the Law doesn’t save anyone, but it does help them to see what God desires of them once they’re saved. Teachers like you, Rob, who come against Mosaic Law…for every Christian, do them a great disservice and cause them to sin against their Lord. Far from being “free in Christ,” you have enslaved them to the Pope, who gave you a “Law free Gospel.” Oh! That Jesus would open your eyes to His Days and His Ways.
Blessings from Above, Rob,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
R. L. Solberg
I agree, the law reveals that we are sinners. One of its primary functions is to show that we all fall short (Rom 3:23) and point us to our need for a savior!
Breaking down the verse you cited: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight…” (Rom 3:20a)
The reason we are not justified through the law is not that, as you suggested, “we are sinful, carnal creatures,” (although that much is true), but rather because God determined from the beginning that justification would come through faith and not the law. In other words, the law was never intended as God’s means of justification. It was always intended to act as a temporary guardian/tutor to lead God’s people to Jesus (Gal 3:24-25).
“…since through the law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20b). Yes, the law serves to highlight the moral bankruptcy of the human race. It doesn’t make us sinners, of course, but rather it reveals us to be sinners and, therefore, it points us to our need for a savior. It points us to Jesus. And so we can’t define sin simply as disobeying the law of Moses. Because sin existed long before the law was given (Rom 5:13). So your suggestion that “the only way we can fully know what sin is, is by Torah/Mosaic Law” is not a Biblical statement. I say that for two reasons.
First, sin was defined before the law was ever given. When God commands us not to murder today, it’s not because of the Ten Commandments. It’s because of His universal principle against murder. Long before God gave Israel the Law of Moses, Cain was judged for murdering his brother Abel (Gen 4:8-16). Same thing with sexual morality. Under the New Covenant, God doesn’t forbid adultery because of the Mosaic law. Unfaithfulness and sexual immorality were wrong long before that law was given, as we see, for example, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18-19).
And second, mankind was made in God’s image, we have a “compass” of objective morality, so to speak, baked into our human DNA (Rom 2:14-16). And under the New Covenant, God’s law is written on our hearts. Therefore, “we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).
When it comes to obedience, we’re each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. And the ritual Mosaic commands do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required.) That said, the Mosaic rituals were not forbidden. Those who choose to keep them are well within their freedom in Christ to do so! (And it especially makes sense for those of Jewish ethnicity who see those rituals as boundary markers of their identity. That’s a beautiful thing.) But keeping them is not required of followers of Yeshua, and doing so does not add one ounce to our righteousness in God’s eyes.
Shalom! Rob
Anonymous
Rob, I understand your position, but can we go step by step. What is the next logical step to show that Yahushua changed his meaning of repent to exclude disobeying Torah?
Ric Joyner
Rob,
I so appreciate this perspective as having lived through Messianic Judaism and then encountering within MJ torah keeping groups then Hebrew roots group. The confusion produced by these groups causes me to want to learn how to study scripture to live a praiseworthy life to God. What is so odd and really never brought up is Paul was persecuted by the (torah keeping) Jews (who then used the Torah to kill an innocent man, in Jesus Christ) (and we see this “killing” of Christians verbally for not keeping Mosaic torah but do try to keep our Lord Jesus commands) and these Unbelieving Jews persecuted Paul and the disciples relentlessly because he was preaching, as you shared that it is by faith we pls God and now are saved through Christ. Romans 9:30-ff is the best Scripture. The whole feast of unleavened bread shows we cannot get sin out of our life with even the adherence to a once per year festival! He was made sin for us. Fulfilled. He came as predicted therefore fulfilled. The moral law as a gentile and torah law racked up a huge sin debt against us to God as a witness. His payment fulfilled that debt. My point? Paul was persecuted by these torah keeping Jews. Do we have evidence that Jews were thrilled to be out from under the mosaic law? Yes. Paul had to rebuke peter and Barnabas for indeed living like gentiles but when the pharisaic believers were around they hypocritically would go under the law and when the pharisaic believers (torah keepers) were around but peter and Barnabas would disfellowship with their gentile brothers. This is torah keeping. This very thing is happening in HRM, Mj Tks etc because of the attack on the church and misrepresenting with bad history it comes from Rome. Attack Easter and Christmas. Is it no accident that most in these false teaching movements are from a pentecostal or charismatic background? So your focus on freedom in Christ is outstanding. Paul does an excellent job of showing us this very concept through his epistles.
Avram Yehoshua
Rob, I am not Messianic nor am I Hebrew Roots nor am I One Law. Please try and deal with what I write to you and don’t lump me into those categories. They all have their heresies, as I’m sure you’re aware of. I am of The Hebraic Perspective.
Avram
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram do you believe Christians are to keep Torah? Yes you have said. Can you explain how you are not aligned with these groups? Your theology appears to be the same. Keep Torah and not only that but your talking points the same. Going to your site you even have the garb on and encourage the same Torah Keeping principles. In TK or hrm they will change their names like yours to reflect their new identity. Is this your real birth name? I have found groups like the other Seed of Abraham that say the same thing you do of hebraic perspective yet align well with HRM Tk. So how do you differ?
Avram Yehoshua
Sorry Ric, it looks like I’ve been blocked:
A potentially unsafe operation has been detected in your request to this site
Your access to this service has been limited. (HTTP response code 403)
If you think you have been blocked in error, contact the owner of this site for assistance.
Block Technical Data
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Time: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 16:29:00 GMT
If you like, contact me via my email address: AvramYeh@Gmail.com
Avram
Ric Joyner
Rob would not block you for the posts i have seen
Avram Yehoshua
Here’s what I wrote, Ric:
“Rob, I am not Messianic nor Hebrew Roots, nor am I One Law. Please try and deal with what I write to you and don’t lump me into those categories. They all have their heresies, as I’m sure you’re aware of. I am of The Hebraic Perspective.
Avram
Ric Joyner
Anonymous,
You asked Rob to go through an analysis here is his article. https://rlsolberg.com/is-the-covenant-new-or-renewed/
My questionS to you ARE if Christ, Who is God Almighty, the same God on Mt Sinai and met with Moshe on the mountain and in person (numbers 12) gave Moses the Torah, and finally came and fulfilled the prophets (see Matthew 5) and told us to obey His commandments (john 14:15) which He now gave through His disciples (new Moses if you will) and all the teaching He gave could not be contained in books (john last chap) and it was so vast and the Torah (Hebrew imperatives) was rolled into these 1642 Greek Imperatives (commands) of the NC which Jesus said to obey (are you obeying them?) to get at the real root of sin which was our real source of our thinking and therefore His death and blood fulfilled the sin debt against us and therefore fulfilled the law (Matthew 5)(eph 4) and therefore Christ put the Torah in our hearts as explained in the New Covenant. (So your argument of defining sin goes away because the HS IS WITHIN US AND WE HAVE his word from His apostles (Moses). So what law are we to keep as now Jew and Gentile? Torah when Christ fulfilled it? The Greek Imperatives are Torah instruction too. Same God on Mt Sinai and Mt Beatitudes. How is keeping Mosaic Torah today help us live praiseworthy to Christ? Did we not by faith die to the law? Romans, But live through Christ? How do you keep Mosaic Torah with no temple? Do you model after Judaism? If so how does one keep shabbat? Modeling Jewish Shabbat practices? Lighting candles and havdalla bread and reciting Jewish prayers? That is practicing Judaism which Torah keepers do. Then are you following Judaism vs Christ? Jesus said to follow Him now not Moshe. Why did Jesus tell Paul to go to the gentiles if we are to live like Jews? Should not everyone convert to Judaism? (Believe me I have seen this happen) Paul went after these Judaizers which were real Jews that were putting people under Judaism and Torah. Today we have gentiles who practice judaism in the name of Torah keeping. In fact, it is like they want to be better Jews than jews! I actually had one say that! Even to wearing jewish ancient garb? Is not there a pick and choose of keeping Torah which is forbidden by the Torah? Are you going three times per year to Jerusalem? If not then you are a Torah breaker. That is HRM/Tks/MJ etc with pick what i want to keep of Torah. So false. What are your thoughts?
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
You remind me of a broken record…you only have a certain anti-Torah song you sing and you cannot or will not, hear what the Holy Spirit is speaking to you through me and others. Also, you have not persuaded me with your arguments against Torah (like saying to Anonymous that he was sinning if he didn’t keep all the laws of Moses, like going on pilgrimage three times a year to Jerusalem). Do you keep the law against lesbianism? (Rom 1:18-28f.) Of course, not because it doesn’t apply to you. Did Jesus Christ keep all the laws of Moses that you say He fulfilled, and so you don’t have to keep them? No He didn’t. He wasn’t a woman and so the laws on child birth and menstruation (Lev. 12; 15:19f.) didn’t apply to Him. He also didn’t offer up the sacrifices on the Day of Atonement, for He wasn’t the High Priest (Lev. 16). So, He didn’t keep all the laws, and neither do we have to keep them if they don’t apply to us and it isn’t possible to keep them. For example animal sacrifice. Ah! You say! Animal sacrifice! Haven’t you read that your favorite Apostle did that AFTER the Resurrection? (Acts 18:18; 21:20-24f.) Was Paul wrong? No one says that in the New Testament, not even Paul. So, how do you reconcile that with Jesus being the one time Sacrifice???
Ric, you are not open to understanding what anyone is saying to you from this sphere, and even though I disagree with the HR and Messianic movements, they do raise some interesting questions for you that you really haven’t answered. You are not a theologian, Ric, and so you really should let Rob answer these queries. After all, isn’t this Rob’s site?
Your main problem, if I might bring this up, and I do hope that you hear me, is that you lump me in with the Judaizers. Their problem, and why Paul came against them, is that they taught the Mosaic Law, symbolized in physical, covenantal circumcision, along with faith in Christ, saved a person. This was struck down at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), which said that it was only faith in Christ and the Gentile must not be circumcised (as Paul later writes of in Rom. 2). Then James writes of four rules (your new Moses rules, no?) that every Gentile had to keep. The Church interprets the rules as those for Table Fellowship, that if the Gentile would keep them, not out of obligation, but out of love for his Jewish counterpart, then they could go to a picnic together and the Jew wouldn’t be offended. The problem with this is that nowhere in Acts 15, nor anywhere else in the NT, does anyone tell the Gentile WHICH unclean animals they couldn’t bring to the picnic. This shatters the Church’s interpretation of the four rules, which are not rules for Table Fellowship at all, but a conceptual unit on sacrificial, sexual idolatry, that if the Gentile didn’t immediately stop, his salvation would truly be in jeopardy. Gentiles didn’t know Adam from Eve, and ALL the Gentile world was filled with paganism. James four rules deal with the most gross pagan sacrificial habits of the Gentiles, for in Gentile land they were accustomed to adding gods and goddesses to their Pantheons. Many of them would add Jesus and worship of Him on the Sabbath, and then go to worship Diana on Sunday, with her temple prostitutes. You really owe it to yourself, Ric, to read my book on Acts 15, which is called The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21, for it reveals not only the proper understanding of the four rules, but also that James saw all the Gentiles going to the synagogues (both Christian and Jewish) to learn the rules of Moses that applied to them (Acts 15:21). An article that would be good for you to read is, Law 102, for it deals with all the places in the New Testament that Christians use to justify their eating of food that, if Jesus had eaten, would have made Him a sinner. Jesus did not fulfill the Law so you could break it. Grace is not a license to sin.
Once the Gentile (or the Jew) was Born Again, they both had to walk in Mosaic Law, as interpreted by Yeshua/Jesus, for Torah is God’s holy Standard for our Christian lifestyle. Keeping Torah is God’s divine requirement, but not for salvation. How can you say you are following Jesus, who to this day would keep Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel, and not eat pork, and would sacrifice animals (see Ezk. 40–47) as the Prince, if He were on Earth, for He is the SAME yesterday, TODAY and forever (Heb. 13:8), if you are not actually following and imitating Him, as Paul did? (cf. 1st Cor. 4:16-17, 5:6-8; 11:1).
Satan, through Rome, has deceived you, but like every person who is deceived, they don’t see it, even when it’s clearly brought to their attention. You think you are right in your theological position, but you are sinning against Jesus every day, and leading many other to sin against Him too. You are not free to do your own thing, but free to follow Him and not sin.
May God have mercy on your soul, for this godly understanding of Christian lifestyle has been brought to your attention, but you continue to sing your own broken song, over and over again.
Sincerely,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram,
It is sad to me that you continually use passive aggressive digs. It really is beneath you. I am not treating you in this manner. Here is an article I found that will help you. I am working on a paper on this very subject. https://trainingleadersinternational.org/jgc/16/the-law-and-the-christian
Note: I only read the first paragraph because I am under a deadline. So therefore the long post goes to waste. I have heard so many talking points that nothing new is presented except they sprinkle it with passive aggressive digs like you do. I rather like your spunk.
Now here are some questions for you. Do you believe that Christians are to keep the Torah? Yes you have said. Then you are Hebrew Roots (Hebraic) and Torah Keeper. If as you say there are differences between those can you please explain? Do you believe that one must speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit to be saved?
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
Your reasoning is faulty. You speak of sin being known before Torah, and I agree, but there is no sin before Torah that isn’t specifically mentioned in Torah, and so Torah trumps all sins that God called to account (like the murder of Abel by his brother Cain). Torah not only encompasses all those pre-Torah sin, but it adds many, many more that cannot be known by our conscience, like the 7th day Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel and the Mosaic Dietary laws.
You speak of Rom. 2:14-16 as having “baked in our DNA” all the sins we need to know, but obviously, if Jesus hadn’t kept the Sabbath day holy He would have sinned. How can you, a member of Israel through faith in Christ, say that you don’t have to keep the rules that your King kept, AND STILL KEEPS AS HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER? (Heb. 8:13)
Faulty reasoning has led you to jettison God’s holy Law as your divine Guideline for walking with your Messiah. If it was sin for Jesus, how could it not be sin for His followers?
Your understanding of what it is to be released from the Law (your faulty use of Rom. 7:6), applies to Paul’s illustration of the woman married to a man, who then dies. She is released from the bond of her former husband so she can marry another. We are released from being “under the Law of Moses” which can only condemn us as sinners, to being in bond/married to Jesus, who has given us a new nature, His, and in obtaining this we have died to self, and so the Law’s just condemnation of us is negated, for the Law’s authority to condemn us stops at our death. Now, “in Christ” we don’t have “another law” as you say, the law of our conscience, but we have Mosaic Law as interpreted by Christ and fueled by His Spirit so we can walk AS HE WALKED. Why would Jesus even say He was Lord of the Sabbath (Mk. 2:28) AND that Not a jot or tittle of the Law would be negated until there were a new Heavens and Earth, if Mosaic Law is our divine Guideline “in Christ”? You err, Rob, in not understanding this passage:
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are WITHOUT LAW, as without law (NOT BEING WITHOUT LAW TOWARD GOD, BUT UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST!), that I might win those who are without law;” (1st Corinthians 9:19-21 NKJV, CAPS mine)
What did Paul mean by saying He was under Law toward God and Christ, Rob? What Law? Your law of conscience? I doubt it, because if Paul meant that he would have said it. It’s Mosaic Law that Paul is speaking about, as nowhere in Scripture does Paul, or anyone else, speak of Sunday keeping or Sunday replacing the Lord’s (Jesus’) Sabbath, or of keeping Easter, etc.
You open your remarks by speaking about our need for a Savior, but that’s “a given” Rob. Please don’t demean yourself by stating the obvious. May remarks about Torah being for every Christian are geared for those who love Christ and have been Born Again (Jn. 3:3, 5). Of course, no one could be justified by keeping the Law, as Israel was saved from Egypt by the blood of the lamb, AND then given the Law to rule its lifestyle after they were saved, at Mt. Sinai. We are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, but once saved, does it matter if you sin? Of course it does! (Rom. 6:1-3) Your understanding of Rom. 3:20b is not accurate. The Law still leads us to Christ and His Ways and Days, not the Pope’s Days and Ways, as you endorse in your “freedom.”
Since you are not able to understand the simple text of Rom. 3:20b, which states that it’s by the Law that we have the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, since it’s in a new way that we serve, BY THE SPIRIT, by keeping the Law, just as Jesus did, I will give you another example of what our God wants in terms of Christian lifestyle.
In Mt. 22:35-40, a scribe comes to Jesus and asks Him what the greatest commandment is. Jesus speaks of the Law’s commandment to love God with all one’s heart, soul and strength AND then adds the next greatest commandment: to love your neighbor as yourself. THEN He says something that allows us to realize WHERE all the other rules and laws of Moses stem from: “On these two commandments HANG ALL the Law.” In other words, EVERY LAW has its reason for being in helping us to understand either HOW to love God or HOW to love our neighbor. Can you see what Mosaic Law is now, Rob? It’s God’s very definition of Love. When you take the Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel away from Christians, you are taking away God’s very expression of HOW to love Him. The same holds true for the Mosaic Dietary laws, for this is how we love ourselves and our neighbors, in being godly witnesses of our Lord.
Rob, you can preach and teach your anti-Mosaic Law Gospel/lifestyle to any people group in the world, except the Jewish people who know that when their Messiah would come, He would not abrogate Sabbath and Feasts, etc., and isn’t this exactly what Jesus said?
““Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17 NKJV) How could Jesus say that, and in the same breath, according to you, give “freedom” from the Law to every Christian? You err greatly in your theological understanding of the PLACE of God’s Law in the life of every Christian because you have been deceived by Rome about Torah. Read my article, The Lord’s Day–Sunday? http://seedofabraham.net/The-Lords-Day-Sunday.pdf and you’ll find references galore for how Sunday came to be “The Lord’s Day,” and why it’s not The Lord’s Day, from both Scripture and Church History (Letters of Ignatius, etc., that speak of the Sabbath still being kept in the first part of the second century, and who changed it). I think you’ll like it, Rob.
Blessings from Above,
Avram
Minister and Senior Elder
By the way, I’m 71 years old and I have been walking with Jesus since 1975 (47 years), and the Lord began to show me His Days and His Ways in 1983 (40 years ago, Rob), and my love for Him and His Days and Ways has only increased. I am saved by faith in Him and being Born Again, and I walk like He walked; following ALL the rules of Mosaic Law that apply to me.
The SeedofAbraham.net
Anonymous
What do you know about New Covenant not starting until after the 1000 year reign and we will have animal sacrifices during the 1000 year reign with Yahushua?
Luke
Great article and lots of very interesting discussion. I’m a gentile, but some of my favorite Bible teachers are Jews including Baruch Korman and Seth Postell. I largely agree with Robs position and a key reason is a point raised by Seth Postell – if the Torah was to be seen as a lawbook, it would have started at Exodus 20. But it didn’t, it started at Genesis, because God’s intention is that we see the Torah as a narrative and the central figure of that narrative (from beginning to end) was Christ Jesus, or Messiah Yeshua. He came to fulfil the Torah – the narrative of our bondage to sin and freedom from it through faith in Him.
To be Torah observant is to accept it’s central character into your life. The trial of Steven vs the Pharisees shows the two interpretations of the Torah (a lawbook or a narrative).
Ric Joyner
Luke outstanding comment. Dr. Baruch is a good friend of ours at biblestudycompany.com. We knew him when… I was just working on a paper when this came through. I will give you to a link of a paper I found in my own research. You will find this easy to read. I have not sent this to Baruch as of yet. This link is safe. https://trainingleadersinternational.org/jgc/16/the-law-and-the-christian
Ric Joyner
I do agree however with its entire premise. We are not under the law and can’t be.
Ric Joyner
Luke consider getting Prof Solbergs book if you haven’t already. I have watched for the lst year this develop nicely. Torah Keeping is such a damaging false Gospel.
Luke
Thanks so much for your kind words Ric – I’ve listened to some of your podcasts before so it is great to be connected. Baruch has been such a wonderful teacher for me and I’m hoping to meet him later this year at his Australian conference. I’ll check out that link as well as buying myself a copy of the book – thanks for both recommendations.
God bless you
Ric Joyner
Well let’s stay connected. rj@biblestudycompany.com Ps you will love that article. BTW Baruch and I have some good arguments that you would enjoy. He just sent an email with these exact words. There is no such thing as Torah Keeping. Interesting.
David
I think God has things/jobs for all his people. Not everyone is tasked with the same things. We all have different things unique. The Christmas debate was something I was dealt with for a while. Nothing that anyone convinced me of. I believe the church has been lead the wrong way in a lot of areas. Listening to his still calm voice and abiding to it is necessary in your walk with God. Stop being so judgemental and exercise some humility when dealing with others.
David
Also remember that we are grafted in to THE TREE. We (representatives) will be required to annual trips to Jerusalem during the millennial reign. We will all become Jews during that period.
Dominique
I sure hope this guy doesn’t have a doctoral degree. If so his university failed him. The arguments he puts forth do not show that you don’t have to observe Torah…This is what our education system produces. SMH.
Shelly
The Lord observed Torah and never quit doing so in any way. He was an observant Jew. And, sits in Heaven a Jew and will return as a Jew. Salvation is from the Jews. Yeshua did not come to established a new religion but complete Judaism. The Jews evangelized to the gentiles. A febrile believer is not a Jew but should understand the faith and worship the Hebrew God in the manner that messianic Jews did and do. Torah is Jesus.
Susan
My experience with Torah Observers’ beliefs began in an insidious fashion.
In 2018 we had a family of seven move into our home for 2 years while we served in the panhandle of Florida. My husband and I delighted serving at a Christian military school for rebellious teenage boys. Our 16 year old son got us there.
We came back home to our Colorado home during the pandemic and lived with the family7, when the Torah Observer term first surfaced. The wife said, “Didn’t you know we are Torah Observers?” when they did not want Christmas celebrated in front of their children. My husband saw it as no big deal when I said the term made me uncomfortable. I had mistakenly assumed the family was like us, since my husband had met the father of 5 in a mens’ bible study in 2018.
Over the next months my husband spoke of not believing in Easter or Christmas, disagreed with me believing he and I were partners vs. me being in submission to him, compared me to a prostitute when I got the vaccine, argued about judgment ruling over grace. There was no room for him to be wrong. He calmly spoke last spring in our church parking lot, “I have done nothing wrong. But I am sorry you hurt and can’t breathe.”
My husband has been prepping for the end of the world since 2008 and for 10 years my concerned comments were met with, “It’s just a symptom.” I recently realized he believes I have the Jezebel Spirit, unwilling to let him be the spiritual leader of our home. He had/has secret places he has forgotten where he has hidden 23 rifles, 17 pistols, bomb making materials, and just shy of 1 million dollars of gold and silver.
Our divorce will be final in less than 2 weeks. Just shy of 40 years of marriage. He tells our children am the total reason for the divorce. He has done nothing wrong. How deceptive easy it is to believe I am the problem. Crazy making material.
What spiritual fruit was being destroyed, even mocked, in our home with 5 children? Humility and compassion, mercy and grace. Roots of arrogance and pride deepened, and my husband deeply believed/s God has chosen him to be “a watchman on the hill.”
The Torah Observers’ movement and their effects on our family? Those insidious beliefs have blown our family up.
R. L. Solberg
That is heartbreaking! Thank you for sharing your story, Susan. I’m glad you shared it to help make others aware of what can come of this Torah-observant movement. I am praying for peace and comfort for you in such a very difficult chapter of your life. Blessings, Rob
Anonymous
Rob, I hope you will share what comes of the Torah observant movement when Susan and her husband reconcile and don’t divorce.
Susan, your marital issues isn’t a fruit of the TO movement. Scriptures will solve your marital problems. If you and your husband disagree, then according to Scriptures, you should take it up with the elders. The husband is the head of the household and you should follow his lead, but when you have disagreements, the elders resolve disputes. If your husband doesn’t agree to see elders, then he’s not TO and this is not caused by TO.
You and your husband will not be divorced according to Scripture if you both are still believers. The requirement for divorce is when one spouse stops believing.
Ric Joyner
Susan from a pastoral perspective the advice from anonymous is suspect because he is a Torah Keeper. And no one can be a Torah keeper. The issue on divorce happens all the time in TK of how twisted the use of scripture is. I dealt with a professor who had five kids and a baptist. His wife joined up with various Torah Keeping groups ans she had an affair but it was “spiritual” and excused because the professor was not a TK. I know polygamy is big in TK. Because you may not be a TK nor should you be because you can submit to the Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament and a local body of Biblically sound community that is not in TK. But do mot submit to any elders of TK because they are on a false Gospel for the most part. The same Lord on Mt Sinai Who gave Moses the law (torah) covenant for Israel also gave the 12 apostles His new covenant and a new priesthood through Christ. Listen to Christ. Your husband may not agree but but stay submitted to the Lord as said and worship the Lord as David did with Psalms through it all. We read them back as if we wrote them to God. It teaches us to worship in the midst if suffering. Place your faith in Christ as you are. Thank you for sharing.
Anonymous
Susan, Ric’s advice is suspect because Ric assumes I identify as Torah Keeper. I simply told you what’s in Scripture regarding marriage and divorce. If your husband is TO, he would obey Scripture.
Regarding polygamy, some TO groups admit there’s no Torah against polygamy, but they avoid it out of love since it could be a stumbling block.
Many against TO in these comments are biased. They had bad experiences and assume every TO are the same. They may forget TO people are still people that will have problems like any church. They tend to argue against TO with bad experiences instead of with Scripture.
So, if you go to elders and you also disagree with them, you can appeal to other elders. If those elders don’t agree to meet with other elders, then they aren’t following Scripture
Ric Joyner
Susan, for some reason people are using “bad experiences” as an excuse to dismiss the opposition to Torah Keeping when they cannot know what experiences a person has. I was never in Torah Keepers just around them. His comment is basically a logical fallacy called straw man and questioning motives. Anon has spoken many times on this site encouraging Torah Keeping (no one can, not even the Jews or him even when the Jews had a temple Rom 9:30-ff). They have a false gospel if Jesus plus Torah and traditions of the Jews. The Bible speaks clearly against Torah Keeping as already stated and because Christ said to follow Him and wants us to follow Him not Jewish law in the form of tradition. The Torah does speak against polygamy because Christ said “marriage is between a man and a woman”. But Moses allowed one to divorce “due to the hardness of their hearts”. I think Anon is a troll for Torah Keeping. Anyway avoid anyone that claims to be a Torah Keeping elder. Submit yourself to Christ and His apostles and a good local church preaching the Bible.
Anonymous
Ric, my focus here is on Susan’s marriage and what Scripture can do to help her relationship.
All anonymous users are not the same. I have other comments on this site that have no response. You’re free to respond to them there.
Anonymous
Ric, polygamists can’t be elders according to Scripture. Elders can only have one wife.
Ric Joyner
My suggestion for you us to say whether ir not you are Torah Keeping. As you noted there are those that use that handle if Anonymous to push Torah Keeping. Your posts could be taken either way especially with the comment that was a logical fallacy of “being hurt”. She should stay as far from these heretical groups as possible which follow Moses and not Christ. Do you agree?
Ric Joyner
My suggestion for you/us is to say whether or not you are Torah Keeping. As you noted there are those that use that handle of Anonymous to push Torah Keeping. Your posts could be taken either way especially with the comment that was a logical fallacy of “being hurt” to dismiss my points. She should stay as far from these heretical groups as possible which follow Moses and not Christ. Do you agree?
Robert Paroski
Hi Mr. Solberg, Thank you for your article. I appreciate hearing the spiritual experiences of others to help with my spiritual walk and relationship with Christ. I believe we all have skewed perceptions of how we should follow, probably due in part to living in a fallen world. We miss the most important, the most valuable, and the most wonderful parts of life, which is Love and Relationship, with our judgments, disagreements, and misinterpretations. None of us have the perfect exact answers on how we should live and follow, and our perceptions and understandings change over time depending on the circumstance we live at that moment in time. Even in this article, I see, in my understanding, misinterpretations.
Reference to article:
“Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)” (Mark 7:18b-19). All food is now clean. (Acts 10:9-16, Mark 7:1-23, Rom 11:11-24, 14:1-15:13). How does it make sense to require the keeping of kosher food regulations when Jesus and the apostles taught us that all food is clean?
Example: You wrote “(Thus he declared all food clean.)” I feel this is misinforming. Never once in the gospel of Christ does it say all food is clean. It does however inform us not to judge the things that others eat, or if they wash their hands or not, which goes back to a, do not judge others, but Love others in their circumstance. In my understanding and my interpretation, the scripture is talking about a Heart condition, and if you are judging someone by what they eat or if they wash their hands or not, then your Heart is not in the right condition that aligns with Christ. I do believe that some foods are healthier than others and God had made these foods known to help us live healthier lives, but that is my interpretation and relationship with God and how I chose to live.
The point of all of this is conditioning our hearts to Love and having that loving relationship with people and most importantly God, without division, without arguing, without judgment, but with Love. True authentic Love, it is however, what Jesus commands us to do.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Me personally, I do not see an issue if someone wants to follow the Law of Moses the best they can. If that is how they relate to God and feel close to God, more power to them. What bothers me is someone having the belief to follow the Law of Moses and judging others for not following, and on the other hand, someone being judgmental to the person wanting to follow the Law of Moses. Everyone relates differently and how they choose to Love God is their business and right.
Our God is big and powerful and doesn’t need our help dictating to others how he should be Loved. We are called to Love.
Thank you for your time,
Robert
Ric Joyner
Robert, thank you for the post. Can you help me with this to better understand your position? “I do not see an issue if someone wants to follow the Law of Moses the best they can. If that is how they relate to God and feel close to God, more power to them.”
Most people who attempt what you are sharing go to Judaism’s traditions to follow the law of Moses. For example, they will have shabbat but go to judaistic prayer books, lighting candles in certain way, hunker down from Friday to Saturday and not spend money and even use jewish prayer books. Jesus said to follow Him. John 14:15.
There are 613 mosaic torah covenant for Israel laws. 247 are gone due to no temple. These are called Hebrew imperatives. If you do one, you put yourself under all. Break one and break all. Yet Christ and His apostles gave us 1642 Greek imperatives (commands/torah) (preceptaustin.org) and see acts 2:42.
Jesus said “follow me”. He did not say follow Moses. Moses would say follow Jesus. False Gospels tell us to follow other than Christ. Why do I say Moses would say follow Jesus? The Father said on the Mt of Transfiguration with Elijah (prophets) and Moses (law) there said “this is my beloved Son, now listen yo Him”. When will the tks listen?
Can you share? Thank you
Robert Paroski
Hi Ric, thank you for your response. I have two questions, then I will give my thoughts and answer to you.
Was Jesus the Word?
Did Jesus say “follow me”?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Ric Joyner
Robert, I am puzzled. Aren’t those my questions to you? You said people are following Moses. Why? Your points actually reinforce mine. I hope you will answer my questions. What most people who follow Moses as a Christian (that is what the Holy Spirit called us in Acts) end up doing is practicing Judaism and we have seen people lose their faith. It is almost like they want to be better Jews than the Jews.I have a guy on my youtube channel that is doing just that by going deeper into Judaism. So who are they following? Moses or Judaism’s interpretation of the Torah (TODAY). The Lord never called us to follow Moses and He never called us to follow Judaism. He called us to follow Him. Mixing two covenants Christ instituted should put a huge stop in peoples shoes. Sadly it does not. He said He came to fulfilled the law in Math 5 which He did by going to the cross and shedding His blood for all of us who are under the law. (Romans) And He fulfilled the prophets by coming as they predicted in the manner they said. He said follow me. Nothing about Moses. Why? Moses did his job. In Judaism when someone dies they cut the tzit tzit off the shawl and bury them in it to symbolize freedom from the Law. Paul said this very thing in Romans. We by faith are dead to the law. Who will we listen to? God the Father and Christ or keep going back to the law? A false gospel says we love God more by keeping Torah (which means we need to study Judaism) yet Paul said there is a curse if you do that? Why? Because it denigrates Christ’s sacrifice to free us to live in the Spirit. And actually people are just practicing Judaism if they are honest. So pls go through and answer my points.
Anonymous
Ric, it’s been a pleasure discussing with you thus far. I apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been very hesitant in continuing to share. This is not something to be taken lightly and I have been praying about and thinking about how I need to respond. In our discussion I hope we can keep in mind my original point in my first post which is Love and Relationship, within our first two commands from Christ. I also ask that you, in a loving manner, read and understand the entire context of what I post and not respond in haste when something may be mis-understood or doesn’t seem to align with your walk. Please try to set self aside and listen to the spirit. Remember we serve the same God and are commanded to Love before all things.
My relationship with Jesus is very personal to me, so please be respectful with what I will share.
I am not a traditionalist. Traditionalist – resist change and do not seem to be open to learning new things.
I do not follow Judaism. Just because someone wants to experience Gods teaching to understand and learn his character doesn’t mean they follow the Judaism’s traditions of Men.
I follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, where Jesus is the physical form of God here on earth. So, to follow Jesus we follow God and to follow God we follow the Word.
John10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
John1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
Your response “You said people are following Moses. Why?”
I never said people are following Moses. Following Moses and following the Law of Moses are two very different things. Moses was a man; the Law of Moses is a Law that was given to Moses by God to give to the people. The Word.
Deuteronomy 4:13 – “And He made known to you His covenant which He commanded you to do, the Ten Words, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Deuteronomy 4:14 – “And God commanded me at that time to teach you laws and right-rulings, for you to do them in the land which you pass over to possess.
As you can see from the two verses above, the covenant is separated from the laws and right-rulings. From my understanding and how my family lives, the Ten Commandments is the covenant with God we keep, and we try to function in His laws and right-rulings the best we can and know how when they apply. Also, from my understanding the 613 laws were not for everyone. Some laws were just for priests and some for farmers etc. So, making a statement like “If you do one of the laws you are bound by all” is false. Just like in today’s time we have laws and right-rulings by our government officials, but we are not bound by all because not all apply to us. The laws God gave to Moses where to help us live a prosperous life. Deuteronomy 4:40 – “And you shall guard His laws and His commands which I command you today, so that it is well with you and with your children after you,”.
You wrote “Jesus said to follow Him. John 14:15.”
Here are three different translations of this verse. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” “If you love me, obey my commandments.” “If you love me, show it by doing what I’ve told you.”
We start by asking; what are the commandments of Jesus? What was the foundation that Jesus lived by? How did Jesus follow the Father?
First, we must remember, in the time that Jesus lived there was no “New Testament” only the “Old Testament” which is the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Luke 4:16-21 – “He goes into a synagogue in Nazareth, is handed a scroll of the book of Isaiah, finds the place he is looking for, and reads Isaiah 61:1”
Second, we must also remember that Jesus was Jewish. Matthew 1 – “This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, and son of Abraham:”
Lastly, we must remember that Jesus followed the Law of Moses and the Prophets. There are many times Jesus said, “It is written” and sites a passage from the “Old Testament”. Remember the Law of Moses is the law of God, given to Moses by God, which is the Word and Jesus is the Word. So, in short, Jesus followed his word.
So back to my questions above. “We start by asking; what are the commandments of Jesus?” Jesus followed the Torah, taught the Torah and lived the Torah and was Torah. In my understanding, the commandments of the covenant are the Ten commands written on the tablet stones and the law was to show how to live. Jesus came and he elevated these commands and laws, see Matthew 5-7. “What was the foundation that Jesus lived by?” Jesus’ foundation and how he lived was following Torah. If he came to do away with or free us from the Old then; what was the foundation on how he lived and how we should live? “How did Jesus honor the Father?” Jesus honored the Father by following the Father’s eternal word the Torah. Matthew 5:18 – “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Jesus has not returned therefore everything has not been accomplished and if everything is not accomplished then we are still under His Laws and Covenantal commands, because God’s Words are eternal. John 19:30 – “When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” But this was not truly the end, if it had been, then the book of Revelations, Daniel’s prophecy and other prophecies etc… would not exist. In my opinion, “It is finished.” means gaining freedom for all with his sacrifice to free us from guilt and shame that we have from falling to sin. Guilt and shame are the snares that the enemy uses against us so that we continue to fall into sin and not love others as we should. Falling is a part of life, to learn and grow, and now we can look upon the cross as a reminder that we are forgiven and very much Loved. He doesn’t condemn us, but why do we keep condemning one another?
I look at God’s Law and Commands as his loving guidelines on how to live, and not the do’s and the don’ts. Like with my children, I have a set of rules for all and some variances with the rules depending on the age and maturity of the child. I do not have rules so I can condemn my children to show them how bad they are and how they could never measure up. I do not have rules to overpower them and show them my authority. I love my children very much and only want what’s best for them. So, my rules are based on my experiences on what I know works, and what I know does not work, what keeps them safe, and what does not keep them safe. Like our heavenly Father, I know what will keep them safe and help them live a long happy life, and like our heavenly Father, there will be given consequences and natural consequences will occur, but I will always be there to love them first.
In closing, I do not follow Judaism or the traditions of Judaism, I follow Messiah who followed the Law of Moses and Prophets which is the word and Jesus is the word. Like I have stated before, “I do not see an issue if someone wants to follow the Law of Moses the best they can. If that is how they relate to God and feel close to God, more power to them.”, I am not saying follow Moses, but I am saying if someone wants to follow God’s Law given to Moses to teach the people, then why is that so bad. You must ask yourself; Is anything from God bad? And is something from God that someone wants to follow bad? At the end of the day, the most Important thought to remember is Love and Relationship, not religion or the traditions of men, but Love and Relationship. Jesus calls us to love first before all else. Love is where we all are commanded to start, and if you don’t have a Relationship with Love, and I mean the phrase Love not a person, place or thing, but truly knowing what love is, then the life that God has blessed us with means nothing and there is no corner stone or foundation to start with. Start Loving and God will do the rest.
Robert
Ric Joyner
Robert, I think it best to review your email at your request and provide perspective. Here is your email with my comments. I will capslock to delineate comments.
SORRY FOR ANY GRAMMAR OR MISSPELLINGS. I HAD TO END THE CONVO DUE TO TIME AND CONSTRAINTS. GO YOUR WAY IN PEACE. I FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSIONS.
In response to Ric Joyner:
Ric, it’s been a pleasure discussing with you thus far. I apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been very hesitant in continuing to share. This is not something to be taken lightly, and I have been praying about and thinking about how I need to respond. In our discussion, I hope we can keep in mind my original point in my first post which is Love and Relationship, within our first two commands from Christ. THIS IS A VERY NICE COMMENT. HOWEVER, I AM INTERESTED IN BEING CORRECT DOCTRINALLY FOR ALL OF US AND BEING LOVING ON TEXT IS HARD TO DO AS PEOPLE WILL READ INTO THE TEXT WHAT THEY WILL. THEREFORE, ANY COMMENTS FROM ME SHOULD BE READ OBJECTIVELY. IN ADDITION, THE FOCUS IS ON CORRECT DOCTRINE AND INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLICAL TEXT TO LIVE PRAISEWORTHY TO CHRIST OUR LORD NOT ON WHO FEELS OK AFTER READING IT. PEOPLE NEED TO COME IN LINE WITH CORRECT DOCTRINE NOT THE REVERSE. I HOPE WE CAN AGREE ON THAT. I also ask that you, in a loving manner, read and understand the entire context of what I post and not respond in haste when something may be mis-understood or doesn’t seem to align with your walk. Please try to set self aside and listen to the spirit. Remember we serve the same God and are commanded to Love before all things. I HOPE YOU ARE DOING THE SAME.
My relationship with Jesus is very personal to me, so please be respectful with what I will share. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE COMMENTS THAT DO NOT NEED STATING. AGAIN I WILL ASK OF YOU THE SAME.
I am not a traditionalist. Traditionalist – resist change and do not seem to be open to learning new things. NOT SURE HOW A TRADITIONALIST DEFINITION FLOWS INTO THE NEXT THOUGHT. I do not follow Judaism. Just because someone wants to experience Gods teaching to understand and learn his character doesn’t mean they follow the Judaism’s traditions of Men. IF YOU ARE TRYING TO KEEP SABBATH OR THE FEASTS THE ONLY PATTERN FOR YOU TO DO SO IS TRADITONAL JUDAISM. THIS IS THE TRAP THAT PEOPLE FALL INTO. SO FAR ANYONE WHO SAYS THEY ARE HEBREW ROOTS OR TORAH KEEPING GO TO JUDAISM TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO “KEEP” THESE FEASTS. BY DEFINTION THIS IS FOLLOWING JUDAISM. YOU MAY NOT BUT I DO NOT SEE YOUR LIFE. THIS IS WHERE WE WERE LED EVERY TIME WE ENCOUNTERED THESE GROUPS OR PEOPLE IN THEM. THEIR PUSH WAS JESUS AND “OH BTW YOU MUST KEEP THE TORAH WHICH IS A HERESY.”
I follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, where Jesus is the physical form of God here on earth. I HOPE YOU ARE NOT WALKING IN MODALISM VS TRINITY. NO TIME TO EXPLAIN THAT. So, to follow Jesus we follow God and to follow God we follow the Word.
John10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
John1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
Your response “You said people are following Moses. Why?”
I never said people are following Moses. Following Moses and following the Law of Moses are two very different things. Moses was a man; the Law of Moses is a Law that was given to Moses by God to give to the people. The Word. I DISAGREE WITH YOU. NUMBERS 12 SHOWS THAT MOSES WAS FOLLOWING THE TORAH BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL THE REVELATION WE HAD. SO PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW TORAH ARE FOLLOWING MOSES. THIS SEMANTIC SPLIT IS NOT PART OF OUR DISCUSSION. IF ONE FOLLOWS THE TORAH ONE IS FOLLOWING MOSES. JESUS EVEN REFERENCED THIS IN MATTHEW 23:1-3 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. 3Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and [a]comply with it all, but do not do [b]as they do; for they say things and do not do them.
THEN JESUS FURTHER WARNED THEM. 4And they tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as their finger. THESE ARE THE CURRENT TORAH KEEPERS OF TODAY.
Deuteronomy 4:13 – “And He made known to you His covenant which He commanded you to do, the Ten Words, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Deuteronomy 4:14 – “And God commanded me at that time to teach you laws and right-rulings, for you to do them in the land which you pass over to possess.
As you can see from the two verses above, the covenant is separated from the laws and right-rulings. From my understanding and how my family lives, the Ten Commandments is the covenant with God we keep, and we try to function in His laws and right-rulings the best we can and know how when they apply. Also, from my understanding the 613 laws were not for everyone. Some laws were just for priests and some for farmers etc. So, making a statement like “If you do one of the laws you are bound by all” is false. I AM SORRY BUT YOUR COMMENT IS FALSE. JAMES 2 IS A WONDERFUL CHAPTER ON SEEING THE NEW COVENANT HERE IS JAMES 2:10 SO PLEASE READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER: 10For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. Just like in today’s time we have laws and right-rulings by our government officials, but we are not bound by all because not all apply to us. The laws God gave to Moses where to help us live a prosperous life. NOT SURE WHAT PROSPEROUS MEANS. BUT JESUS SAID WE WILL HAVE TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS WHICH DEEPENS OUR FAITH TITUS 2:11-12. IT IS VERY ODD THAT YOU ARE GOING BACK TO ALL TORAH SCRIPTURES WHEN YOU LIVE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OF JER 31:31. THE APOSTLES ARE EXPLAINING THE OC TO US IN THE EPISTLES AND TEACHINGS OF CHRIST ACTS 2:42. WHY DON’T YOU DEFEND USING THE NT VS LAWS FOR THE NATION OF ISRAEL? ROMANS 11 DISCUSSES US BEING GRAFTED INTO THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM. ALL SAVED BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS WHETHER JEW OR GENTILE ARE NOW GRAFTED THROUGH OUR BELIEF IN CHRIST TO ABRAHAM’S FAITH. OUR “LAWS” ARE NOW 1642 GREEK IMPERATIVES VS 613 HEBREW IMPERATIVES (247 ARE FOR THE TEMPLE WHICH NO LONGER EXIST. NOW THE POINT OF SAYING THE 1642 GREEK IMPERATIVES WAS TO COUNTER THE LIE FROM TORAH KEEPERS THAT CHRISTIANS ARE LAWLESS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OBSERVE TORAH. BUT THE TORAH KEEPERS HAVE TO READ INTO THE NT TO FIND ANYTHING THAT SAYS WE ARE TO KEEP TORAH SIMILAR TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE BIBLICALLY INCORRECT. AND THIS IS WHAT I HAVE OBSERVED AS WELL AS OTHERS THAT THERE IS POOR BIBLICAL STUDY METHODS USED BY TORAH KEEPERS. I DO NOT MEAN THIS UNKIND BUT YOU ARE MAKING MANY MISTAKES IN PROPER BIBLICAL STUDY METHODS. BIBLESTUDYCOMPANY.COM WAS BUILT FOR PEOPLE TO USE TO LEARN PROPER METHODS. IT IS FREE TO USE. A GREAT MISTAKE BEING MADE IS READING INTO THE TEXT EISGESIS WHICH IS PUTTING YOUR THOUGHTS OR PRESET AGENDA INTO THE TEXT INSTEAD OF EXEGESIS WHICH IS TAKING OUT OF THE TEXT. LOTS OF GROUPS DO THIS. JW, MORMONS, TORAH KEEPERS, CHARISMATICS ETC. Deuteronomy 4:40 – “And you shall guard His laws and His commands which I command you today, so that it is well with you and with your children after you,”. EPH 5-6 SAYS NEARLY THE SAME THING.
You wrote “Jesus said to follow Him. John 14:15.”
Here are three different translations of this verse. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” “If you love me, obey my commandments.” “If you love me, show it by doing what I’ve told you.”
We start by asking; what are the commandments of Jesus? What was the foundation that Jesus lived by? How did Jesus follow the Father? WHY DID YOU INCLUDE THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE SAME TEXT. JESUS SAID TO OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS. ISN’T THE WARNING ON MARK 9 FROM GOD THE FAITHER WITH MOSES AND ELIJAH THERE TO “LISTEN TO HIM” WAS CLEARLY THE AUTHORITY THE APOSTLES NEEDED TO MOVE INTO A NEW TESTAMENT THAT CHRIST SEALED BY FORGIVING THE ENTIRE WORLD’S SIN (THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM FOR SALVATION) BECAUSE HE IS GOD! ONLY GOD IS SINLESS.
First, we must remember, in the time that Jesus lived there was no “New Testament” only the “Old Testament” which is the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Luke 4:16-21 – “He goes into a synagogue in Nazareth, is handed a scroll of the book of Isaiah, finds the place he is looking for, and reads Isaiah 61:1” HERE ARE GIANT BIBLICAL STUDY METHODS MISTAKES. FIRST YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS NOT WRITTEN YET. BUT JESUS IN JOHN 20:19 GAVE THEM THE AUTHORITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WERE WITH CHRIST FOR 3.5 YEARS IN A FANTASTIC RELATIONSHIP AND TAUGHT AS MOSES WAS TAUGHT FACE TO FACE NUM 12 AND THEN RELAYED THIS TO ALL OF US. ACTS 2:42 IS OUR MARCHING ORDERS. BEST SEMINARY EDUCATION EVER. CONTEXT AND EXEGESIS IS VERY IMPORTANT WHICH IS NOT BEING USED IN YOUR STATEMENT. JESUS SAID TO OBEY MY COMMANDS AND MAKE DISCIPLES IN MATTHEW 28:16-20 AND TO OBEY ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU. BUT IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR THEORY CORRECT YOU ARE ONLY READING INTO THE TEXT TORAH. THIS IS FALSE TEACHING BECAUSE IT LEADS PEOPLE TO THE BONDAGE OF KEEPING TORAH WITHOUT A TEMPLE. ALL ARE TO FOLLOW JESUS WHO HAD 12 APOSTLES LIKE MOSES. THIS MAY APPEAR TO BE UNKIND BUT IT IS NOT. IF YOU WERE SITTING IN FRONT OF ME I WOULD BE GLAD TO GO OVER MORE. FOLLOW JESUS.
Second, we must also remember that Jesus was Jewish. Matthew 1 – “This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, and son of Abraham:” THIS COMMENT IS SO PATRONIZING TO BE OFFENSIVE. BUT I WILL MOVE ON. Lastly, we must remember that Jesus followed the Law of Moses and the Prophets. THIS COMMENT IS VERY TROUBLING. HE WAS THE WORD OF GOD. HE DID NOT FOLLOW ANYONE! HE CAME AND FULFILLED THE TORAH BY PAYING OUR DEBT PENALTY OF SIN THROUGH HIS BLOOD. HE THEN CAME AND BY COMING HE FULFILLED THE PROPHETS. THIS COMMENT REDUCES JESUS TO A FOLLOWER OF HIMSELF AND IS THEREFORE TROUBLING FOR THE FACT IT DIMINISHES HIM BEING LIMITED TO TORAH WHICH WAS GIVEN TO MAN TO REVEAL SIN. JESUS IS THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE AND CREATOR! THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO US UPON BEING BORN AGAIN, AND THEN THE LORD JER 31:31 PUTS THE TORAH IN US. AND THROUGH THE TEACHING OF HIS DISCIPLES WE SEE HIS TEACHING. NO ONE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT UNLESS THEY WERE GIVEN HIM BY GOD. WE ARE GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT UNDER THE NC TO EMPOWER US TO LIVE PRAISEWORTHY AND FOLLOW HIS WORD GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES. ACTS 2:42 There are many times Jesus said, “It is written” and sites a passage from the “Old Testament”. Remember the Law of Moses is the law of God, given to Moses by God, which is the Word and Jesus is the Word. So, in short, Jesus followed his word. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT USING EISEGESIS TO PROVE WE NEED TO FOLLOW TORAH. THIS IS THE ODDEST DEBATE BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE TALKING TO A JEW WHO SAYS WE ARE UNDER TORAH RIGHT AFTER CHRIST CAME AND DIED YET THERE ARE WITNESSES AT THE GOSPEL STORY OF THE LAST USPPER WHERE HE INAUGURATED THE NC AND WE HAVE CHRISTIANS (AKA TORAH KEEPERS) WHO BELIEVE JESUS DID NOT MEAN WHAT HE SAID! OR THAT PAUL WAS EVEN AN APOSTLE AND THEIR GOSPEL TO OTHER CHRISTIANS IS “COME OUT OF THE CHURCH AND FOLLOW MOSES AND THE torah” (ps we believe in polygamy too and other weird things)
So back to my questions above. “We start by asking; what are the commandments of Jesus?” Jesus followed the Torah, taught the Torah and lived the Torah and was Torah. FALSE CONCLUSION. In my understanding, the commandments of the covenant are the Ten commands written on the tablet stones and the law was to show how to live. NOT LIMITED TO THE 10. Jesus came and he elevated these commands and laws, see Matthew 5-7. “What was the foundation that Jesus lived by?” Jesus’ foundation and how he lived was following Torah. If he came to do away with or free us from the Old then; what was the foundation on how he lived and how we should live? “How did Jesus honor the Father?” Jesus honored the Father by following the Father’s eternal word the Torah. Matthew 5:18 – “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Jesus has not returned therefore everything has not been accomplished and if everything is not accomplished then we are still under His Laws and Covenantal commands, because God’s Words are eternal. John 19:30 – “When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” But this was not truly the end, if it had been, then the book of Revelations, Daniel’s prophecy and other prophecies etc… would not exist. In my opinion, “It is finished.” means gaining freedom for all with his sacrifice to free us from guilt and shame that we have from falling to sin. Guilt and shame are the snares that the enemy uses against us so that we continue to fall into sin and not love others as we should. Falling is a part of life, to learn and grow, and now we can look upon the cross as a reminder that we are forgiven and very much Loved. He doesn’t condemn us, but why do we keep condemning one another?
I look at God’s Law and Commands as his loving guidelines on how to live, and not the do’s and the don’ts. Like with my children, I have a set of rules for all and some variances with the rules depending on the age and maturity of the child. I do not have rules so I can condemn my children to show them how bad they are and how they could never measure up. I do not have rules to overpower them and show them my authority. I love my children very much and only want what’s best for them. So, my rules are based on my experiences on what I know works, and what I know does not work, what keeps them safe, and what does not keep them safe. Like our heavenly Father, I know what will keep them safe and help them live a long happy life, and like our heavenly Father, there will be given consequences and natural consequences will occur, but I will always be there to love them first.
In closing, I do not follow Judaism or the traditions of Judaism, I follow Messiah who followed the Law of Moses and Prophets which is the word and Jesus is the word. THIS ENCAPSULATES WHAT I AM SAYING. YOU FOLLOW TORAH THROUGH MOSES AND NOT CHRIST WHO COMMANDED YOU TO FOLLOW HIM AND HIS DISCIPLES. SORRY TO SAY IT THIS WAY. I HOPE YOU WILL CONSIDER PRAYING ABOUT THIS AND STOP FOLLOWING NONSENSICAL TEACHERS INTO A MOVEMENT THAT IS PAUL WARNED US ABOUT.
Like I have stated before, “I do not see an issue if someone wants to follow the Law of Moses the best they can. If that is how they relate to God and feel close to God, more power to them.”, I am not saying follow Moses, but I am saying if someone wants to follow God’s Law given to Moses to teach the people, then why is that so bad. You must ask yourself; Is anything from God bad? THIS IS WHAT MOST TORAH KEEPERS DEFAULT TO WHEN CHALLENGED. And is something from God that someone wants to follow bad? YES. ALL FALSE DOCTRINE THAT LEADS PEOPLE AWAY FROM CHRIST AND TO ANOTHER VERSION OF THE GOSPEL IS TROUBLING TEACHING. IT WILL HAVE RAMIFICATIONS. PAUL SAID THEY “BE ACURSED”. WHY? BECAUSE CHRIST PAID A TERRIBLE PRICE TO COME TO OBEY THE WILL OF THE FATHER TO REDEEM US MARK 10:45. IT SEEMS THE ULTIMATE ARROGANCE OF A MOVEMENT TO DECLARE THAT THEY WILL BE BETTER JEWS BY BELIEVING IN JESUS AND KEEP THE TORAH THAT NO ONE COULD THAT WAS JEWISH. ISN’T THAT ARROGANT TO YOU? At the end of the day, the most Important thought to remember is Love and Relationship, not religion or the traditions of men, but Love and Relationship. NOT TRUE. DOCTRINE MATTERS. AND THIS IS FALSE DOCTRINE. SOMEONE WOULD SAY “RIC THIS IS UNLOVING.” JESUS EVEN WARNED US TO HAVE OUR EYES AND EARS OPEN. CORRECT DOCTRINE MATTERS. WE ARE TO GET IN LINE WITH CORRECT DOCTRINE. Jesus calls us to love first before all else. NO. HE CALLS US TO FOLLOW HIM. AND TO TREAT HIM WITH UTMOST REVERANCE AND LOVE AND TO BELIEVE IN HIM WHOLEHEARTIDLY. NOT SUBJECT “LOVE”. Love is where we all are commanded to start, FALSE and if you don’t have a Relationship with Love, and I mean the phrase Love not a person, place or thing, but truly knowing what love is, then the life that God has blessed us with means nothing and there is no corner stone or foundation to start with. Start Loving and God will do the rest. DOES LOVE MEAN WE INTERPRET HIS SCRIPTURE THE WAY WE WANT TO OR IN OUR PET PARADIGM? NO. WE ARE TO LOVE GOD WITH OUR WHOLE HEART SOUL AND MIND then OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES. WE ARE TO HANDLE HIS WORD WITH RESPECT AND DIGNITY AND BEING IN HONEST RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM BECAUSE NO JEW COULD KEEP TORAH AND IT WAS TO LEAD US TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST. HE IS HERE AND SO LET US LOVE HIM BY OBEYING HIS COMMANDS GIVEN BY HIM AND THE APOSTLES. ACTS 2:42
Robert
Robert Paroski
I love Jesus very much and know one or nothing will ever change that, and I also love you too brother Ric and your enthusiasm. You asked for my heart and what I feel are my truths and ridiculed them, so how is that a loving follower of Christ? In the end the spirit will guide both of us to the proper truths. God bless you and keep you brother.
Robert
Ric Joyner
I did no such thing. I was very careful with my language. I challenged your doctrines and theology. If you are offended over challenging your positions that is on you. Jesus did that all the time with the religious leaders and with the Disciples. Read Mark 10. There is much debate going on. Follow Christ. Treat His word with all respect due His sacrifice and Creator status. All of us need to grow up and decide if what we believe is correct. I reject your assertions of being unloving and actually for me to take the time means, I actually do love you. I was almost caught in this web as well of heresy. And it is very loving to for all of us to challenge our beliefs. It honors God and the people who may be on off the path God wants us on. Blessings to you Robert.
Garrett Speck
In the materials I have read from the Hebrew Roots movement, I see a failure to distinguish understanding and becoming. Yes, understanding judaism and the law is necessary to fully understanding what is happening in the Old Testament and New Testament, but this does not mean one has to become a jew or follow the law to do it. Understanding gnosticism is beneficial for understanding some of Johns letters, but that doesn’t mean I am going to become a gnostic (perhaps an extreme example).
But I was wondering how you understand what Paul does in Acts 21:17-26? Is this an example of what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, in seeking to win people to the gospel of Christ?
The Hebrew Roots movement seems to be a “reincarnation” of the circumcision party Paul continually fought throughout his ministry. Those seeking to bring people who are free in Christ, back into the slavery of the law. I see this as deeply offensive and going right in the face of Jesus and what he did on the cross. It is basically looking at Jesus and saying “I don’t need you, got this on my own” (Gal. 2:21).
R. L. Solberg
Great points, Garrett! Those are insightful observations. Regarding Acts 21 and 1 Cor. 9, I see them both as examples of Paul doing whatever it takes to win people to Christ. And further, I pull from those passages (and others) the concept of “permitted but not required.” In other words, followers of Jesus are free to observe Mosaic traditions. (Provided, of course, they are observed as a matter of personal preference and not as legal obligations of righteousness or salvation.) But we are under no obligation to do so.
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Garrett this is so well said! That is what they are doing. They cross the line demanding that all Christians come out of the church and follow Torah as if this is the only Scripture Christ gave us! This is legalism. Jesus said to follow Him! There are 1642 greek imperatives (commands) from the 12 and Paul which by their definition Torah means instruction. And to make it worse many people are actually following Judaism and can lose their faith!
IMS
King David never met Immanuel…he still “hated” those who hated God when he died. The Law to him was something he wanted to meditate on day and night, because he did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide him, because he hadn’t come into contact with the New Covenant that came about by Jesus blood…Jesus Emmanuel came and did a whole new thing…He said, you have heard it said, hate your enemies, but I tell you, Love your enemies…David had to have the Law to be righteous, he hadn’t met Jesus yet…
Ryan
Dear Professor Solberg,
Unfortunately I have just discovered your website. Sadly I have spent the last several years without reading your articles. This specific article is very interesting in both its content and in the replies it has produced. I must say however, that I have been very disappointed in the lack of scriptural understanding of most on this page. Please let me elaborate.
First, I think it is hilarious that Ric does not want anyone to be Torah observant, but insists they must keep over 1600 “New Testament” laws? Wow! You talk about bondage. I feel like Ric is putting a weight on me that even the fathers weren’t able to bear. Nevertheless, Ric does make good points about Christians falling into the trap of “Phariseeism” (Rabbinic Judaism). The separation that occurred at Yavne between the Pharisees and the Jesus followers seems irreconcilable to me. The “TO” community almost assuredly will fall into the quicksand of rabbinism if they are not careful. Talmudic Judaism is very anti-christian, and any Jesus-follower who adheres to those precepts are in grave theological danger. I would argue that it is impossible to be both a Christian and a devout follower of the Talmud.
Ric also has some problems with his logical fallacies. His arguments are filled with ad hominem attacks, straw man fallacies, and he continuously assumes what he is trying to prove. Having said that, I know that Ric’s heart is in the right place. He is genuinely trying to save people from living a life according to horrible theology. Sadly, while trying to save some who are confused, he foists his own bad theology on them as an alternative. He also assumes that the hermeneutical principles to which he adheres are superior to those who are attempting to lead a “TO” lifestyle. I am sure Ric has taken a few college courses on Biblical interpretation and systematic theology; however, that appeal to authority makes no difference when there are many who have the same credentials and can’t tie their own shoes (theologically speaking of course).
Second, it is disappointing that the “HRM/TO” folks still loft the same tired arguments they were lofting back in the 1990’s. The Hebrew Roots gentiles and Messianic Jews seemed to have reached their theological pinnacle by about 2017. Since then it seems as though half have gravitated back toward mainstream (usually pentecostal) Christianity, and the other half into aberrant teachings such as “sacred name theology”, flat earth beliefs, and polygamy. The latter half almost function in a sort of theological “Wild West”, where there is no apostolic oversight, and half-trained theologians make doctrines that the masses blindly follow. At this point I see “TO” Christians who are gravitating back to “normative” Christianity as people who desire a more holy lifestyle than your typical pew-sitter. The Wild West folks however, may need to be “snatched out of the fire”.
Lastly, Jesus is “The Prophet” (Deut. 18:18-19) that we must hear and obey. Jesus could not and would not abrogate any of the “Old Testament” (Deut. 12:29 – Deut. 13:5). So your claim that, “Anyone who teaches that believers in Jesus are required to keep the Mosaic Law…is teaching Torahism”, then Jesus Himself is a “Torahist”. If He taught anything else He would be both a false teacher/prophet and a false messiah. He certainly would be disqualified to be the spotless lamb “who takes away the sins of the world.” Although having some merit, this idea of Torahism lacks the historical perspective which reveals the cultural milieu in which the faith was formed.
It is laughable that most Christians actually believe that there was a “dark ages” between Malachi and Matthew. The “bridge” literature (much of which was found in the DSS) was part of normative Judaism during the Second Temple Period. This artificial gap that the church ignorantly imposes, handcuffs its adherents and blindfolds itself to the original historical and cultural realities that prevailed at the time.
Nevertheless, this brief comment merely sets the stage for some concluding remarks; namely, the change in the Law was a change in administration.
The Levitical Administration, with its temple service (including sacrifices), was replaced by the Melchizedek Administration (Jesus being the high priest of course). This is clearly taught in the Book of Hebrews if one is able to rightly divide the Word. The Levitical System with its earthly temple, animal sacrifices, and austere penalties gave way to the Melchizedek System’s: temple made without human hands; Jesus’ priesthood and once for all sacrifice for justification and the sanctifying of the spirit; and an emphasis on chesed (loving kindness and mercy).
That is to say, we are no longer stoning people for adultery, but rather saying, “Go and sin no more”. Further, we are no longer killing goats (although I think some HR people might be open to that) for atonement, and we are certainly not traveling to Jerusalem for Sukkot. Jesus, through the scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit, instructs us concerning this “New Administration”. This explains why the New Testament writers emphasize commandment keeping outside of Levitical oversight and the Jerusalem temple cultus in general.
When viewed from this perspective, one does not need to jump through flaming hoops in order to justify modern day Christian antinomianism. Nor does one have to follow Ric’s advice and overcompensate with 1600 “New Testament instructions”. Although not easy, all one must do is consider how an “Old Testament” precept is being administered by Jesus from the Heavenly Tabernacle. The earthly tabernacle (those in covenant with the Father through the Son) must also have human administrators. At this the church has woefully failed. Now we have billions who follow the faith of the Pope, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, etc. instead of the Faith of Jesus. But this of course was the purpose of the HRM in the first place.
God used the HRM to bring His heirs to this crisis point–to have this conversation. “When the Son of Man returns will He find the faith on the earth?” The answer to that depends on how we proceed from here. The general lawlessness of many congregants in churches will no doubt go in the way of the man of lawlessness. Those making their own torah (Ric for example) to justify their own lifestyle will of course have to answer to the one Lawgiver and Judge.
The “revival” the church prayed for through the early 2000’s came in the form of the “TO” movement, through which God was emphasizing holiness. Unfortunately, they rejected the very revival for which they prayed. As a result, the “TO” crew has no church oversight. Therefore it could be said the HRM is the church’s Frankenstein’s monster. Now a church that has lost most credibility, has no power, and is overwhelmingly compromised, must find the will and way to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Good luck with that! As it is bleeding congregants, this impotent church must rise to the occasion, repent of its religious spirit and theological pride, and approach the “TO” folks–hat in hand–and have a serious conversation. The conversation up to this point has been based on name-calling and self-defensive maneuvers on both sides to justify mutually bad doctrine. I wish we could have a new “Jerusalem Council”, but I don’t know if we are able, as we have become men of Facebook and Twitter, both petty and small.
Blessings to you Professor.
Ryan
Anonymous
How does observing feasts and sacrificing animals in the millennium fit in with your interpretation?
Ryan Hartman
Dear Anon,
It seems clear to me from multiple texts that this is perfectly in line with the view I espouse. Let me start with the Book of Hebrews 8:7-8. In the first clause, the NKJV uses the word covenant (in italics). This of course shows an English reader that the word covenant is not in the Greek manuscripts, and was added by a copyist. Sadly, covenant is not the proper word to be used in this context. The verse should obviously say “For if that first “priesthood” had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.” This is obvious when one looks at the pronoun used in verse 8 which says, “Because finding fault with THEM (emphasis mine)…” The referent to “them” can not be covenant because a covenant is an “it” not a them. The context in the previous three chapters is the weakness of the priesthood of Levi, and the superiority of the priesthood of Jesus (Melchizedek).
So as a result of the weaknesses of the Levitical Administration, God chose to raise up the Melchizedek Administration. The Melchizedek Administration will of course remain until the return of the Messiah and the establishment of His kingdom. If the Jews should build a temple in Jerusalem between now and then, it will be a really bad thing. Jesus followers should avoid the “3rd temple” as it will be functioning under an administration not sanctioned by God. Not to mention that their sacrifices may be considered an abomination, and a grave insult to the Father.
Next if one looks at Hebrews 7:12-17 and 8:3-6, one will see that Jesus is not from the priestly tribe that functions in the earthly temple/tabernacle. He is from the tribe of Judah which received the kingship, but has no right to the priesthood. Therefore He serves in a Heavenly tabernacle, the one that the Lord erected (8:2). If there is an earthly temple, it must be under the Levitical Administration. That is God’s promise to Levi. So as long as Jesus functions as our Great High Priest in the true tabernacle in Heaven, there is no need for an earthly temple or Levitical Administration. Technically, the followers of Jesus have become a “royal priesthood”, that is in the similitude of Melchizedek.
When Jesus establishes His kingdom on Earth and is reigning from His earthly throne, He will bequeath the priesthood back to Levi. This is firmly established in the latter chapters of the Book of Ezekiel (and elsewhere). Ezekiel specifically speaks of Zadok being restored in the Kingdom Age because he “kept charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me…” (Ezekiel 44:15)
The animal sacrifices will occur on behalf of those who enter in to the Kingdom in human bodies. Obviously, those who have been resurrected will by no means need to sacrifice. The people in physical bodies will still need to offer sin (chata’at – purification) offerings in order to gain the proper kedushah (access to enter into more sacred realms by means of elevated holiness). Again, the Levitical Administration will govern the access to the earthly temple. Those rules will be reinstated regarding ritual cleanliness, corpse defilement, etc. Again, those who were raptured/resurrected will have the highest levels of kedushah, so as now, we will be able to boldly approach the throne of grace having, in the previous age, accepted the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. Remember, that those who enter the Kingdom in physical bodies will not enter because of faith in Jesus, but rather on the basis of “Whatever you did to the least of these, My brethren, you did it unto Me.” (Matthew 25:31-46).
In regard to the feasts, they are obviously going to be celebrated in the Kingdom under the Levitical Administration. That fact is demonstrated in multiple places in the Old Testament. The real question should be if they are applicable under the Melchizedek Administration that exists today. The answer is of course, yes. Remember, these are not feasts of the Jews or Levitical feasts, they are the Feasts of YHVH. Like the Sabbath that was made for all mankind, not mankind for the Sabbath, the feasts were made for all mankind. How can this be established? Very easily actually. Just as the Sabbath was the seventh and final day in the creation story, the feasts were created on the fourth day. The sun, moon, and stars would be for signs and seasons (moedim – appointed times/feasts). So before there was a man to celebrate them, God had already made provisions for the way He preferred to be worshiped. And of course on the day after He created humans, they enjoyed the first Sabbath with their Creator.
Must we keep the feasts today under the Melchizedek Order? I do not believe it is a requirement, but it’s like asking if we should eat ice cream under the Melchizedek Order. Of course we should! They are an absolute delight, as they are so rich in meaning and point beautifully to the redemptive work of our Lord. We must remember that many generations of gentile followers of Jesus did not have the revelation of the feasts. To suggest that they are required, disqualifies millions in generations past from entering into glory. After all, each generation can only be held responsible for the revelation they received.
One may ask though, how can one celebrate the festivals properly without a temple in Jerusalem and with the lack of animal sacrifices during this age? The way any Melchizedek royal priesthood would. First, we (collectively and individually) are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, one does not have to travel around the world. Instead one must look about 8 inches below his/her chin, locate their heart, and acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is there. Next, one must celebrate however the Holy Spirit leads them. Again we are not following Levitical prescriptions, and we are certainly not trying to mimic Pharisee traditions. On those days, we are exalting our Messiah and adoring our Father. We are not trying to check off boxes or jump through Talmudic hoops.
But I just want to thank you Anon, for asking this question. What a wonderful way to spend a Friday night. It is my pleasure responding to you.
May the Lord richly bless you,
Ryan
Denny Stewart
Please please rejoice !!!! If you were truly born again, Jesus is in you, the Holy Spirit is in you, and it’s sealed!!!! it can’t be contaminated by your flesh. This supernatural act will keep you from wanting to commit sin.If observing Hebrew laws and temple restrictions and feast did this God would not of sent Jesus. Im not a very good writer and I don’t have much of a college degree but Jesus saved my life and I’ve been studying the Bible for over 10 years with Calvary Chapel and a few other true Churches. Sure, we will mess up and make mistakes, but we will repent and come to the cross, and be forgiven by Gods grace. If knowing the laws and the Tabernacles and the feast made you righteous, why would they have killed Jesus ??We are living in the sixth dispensation it’s called grace. The law was the fifth dispensation, there are only seven dispensations in all and Jesus is coming back in the next one. Being born again, we’re not supposed to dip back into the fifth dispensation of the law and drag them into our church ,that makes it a religion. God hates Religion,That’s the people that killed Jesus ,they were so blind in their religion,They didn’t recognize the true Messiah. If you Google religion, there’s 3 billion responses ,everyone is so interested in religion because the fingerprint of God is on every single human. If you’re truly a Christian you will want to carry out Gods objective that every one truly knows Jesus and we all go to heaven !!! If you prideful like Satan you will tell everyone about your special religious beliefs like Law And how they are the true meaning of God. Pentecostals say it’s all about Acts, they’re stuck in the rut of Pentecost . SDA ,masonic Jews, and Torah followers are stuck in the rut of the 5th dispensation, law, . These things are important but can be taken out of context. The Bible must be interpreted correctly and in order. Please do a study on the 7 dispensations of the Bible. Real Christians mirror Jesus, hunger for his righteousness, have proper discernment from proper Bible studies, and Bible Based teaching and preaching. There are so many false religions, SDA, Mormon, JW, Scientology, Muslim, prosperity gospels and their special rules are very addictive. What’s more addictive than PRIDE ???True religion pride that’s what.Just ask the great deceiver ,divider and destroyer Satan himself the king of pride .These members get angry that’s why they get an attitude of superiority . I’ve been trying to bring people out of these Cults for years. It’s really hard . Basically, only the Holy Spirit can do it .Religion gives Satan a foothold . The older, the religion , the bigger the religion, the more footholds. look at the poor Catholic Church , billions of members ,people rip on them all day long . But when you need an exorcism, who do you call ?? Maybe that’s why they’re under attack so much. I don’t think these torah guys will be performing exorcisms , maybe on themselves. Capital punishment is biblical ,a Torah guy would say thou shall not kill, so therefore there’s no capital punishment for a sex trafficker or other supernaturally evil crimes and will now serve our country’s armed forces either. Now we see one way evil works through religious misinterpretation. Mandatory Saturday sabbath perfect evil divid for the church .Christians go to church on Sunday so We’re called pagans ,they go to church on Saturday because they’re the so called true religion .I know some born-again Catholics in my Bible study and They’re wonderful disciples of Jesus. I imagine some of the Torah followers are born again, and really know Jesus too, but to live by the law, takes away from grace, you can’t add on to Grace with Law,Grace smashed Law,Jesus Christ paid our sins 100% he’s the Holy one !! We are going to be in God’s court room and if you know Jesus, he’s gonna have his hand on your shoulder saying dad I know this brother or sister ,his fines are paid in full by my blood.We are pleading The 6th dispensation- Grace was dispensed by God thru Jesus thats where we are now, not the first five dispensations those are past. These cult like torah guys are running around in circles.
.Mankind can mess up some stuff Brothers and sisters. Keep your nose in the good book , pray for biblical wisdom and discernment before you study and meditate ,write down in a notebook what the Holy Spirit reveals to you.Keep that notebook handy, you’ll meet people that need to hear what you have. First Double check your discernment with your teachers and in Bible study . Iron sharpens iron. Tune in to Bott Radio,Family talk ,Olive tree Ministries, view the Chosen ,these aren’t perfect either, but for the most part they’re Bible correct and some of the best. They will light the path for you . God wants us to bring as many people to salvation as possible. We must do that with love, just like Jesus did, law is not going to do that. We found that out by reading the old testament. Please pray a revival for our country and the world. Remember, the gods main objective is to bring everyone to heaven through Jesus, not religion. Yes, fellowship is a requirement so make sure you pick a good Bible-based church ,no soul sleeping no special diet, no mandatory sabbath day,no liberal,no woke or other kookie rules .But a personal relationship with the one true king Jesus is what you should be hearing from the pulpit .I have a challenge for you, Please spread the gospel to every single person you meet from now on .Be sure to do it in love, and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide your words,Try to share your personal testimony what Jesus has done in your life.It takes practice .Slow down,Listen,and empathize for the person. God will change your life forever. You will notice the the Holy spirt inside you become stronger and stronger, and will avoid temptation-and follow commandments easier and easier. Pray that the Holy Spirit reveals the gifts of the spirit to you.The fruit of the Spirt is a different subject than gifts.God gave us all a certain gift that we should serve the Lord with ,and please serve away. Jesus knows ever word we say and the obedient servant on earth will be a king in heaven. All my Love to my eternal brothers and sisters in Christ, from a simple born again Christian servant 😇 thank you, Denny
Anonymous
If feasts and sabbath were works, we would not need them in the 1,000 year reign.
Denny Stewart
Why would you be concerned with the thousand year reign? Are you in charge of that? Is that your department ,that’s gods department you’re supposed to be following the commandments that Jesus spoke in the sixth dispensation of the Bible. We don’t live in the fifth dispensation anymore. Can you get in your car and drive back 2000 years? There’s a reason for that and the Bible’s is the same way, you’re not supposed to go back in time in the Bible and live by those laws when God clearly dispersed grace through Jesus.You realize Jesus is God ,why would you disobey Jesus and then say you’re obeying God . Going back in the dispensations of the Bible is not obeying God it’s overriding Jesus. if God wanted us to obey the ancient laws he would’ve made the last dispensation Law. But it’s not. It’s called the kingdom age where God will rule the earth with every believer from every dispensation ,Please look it up. If you’re gonna go back in the Bible go all the way back to the first dispensation ,innocence then you would be completely innocent if you did everything in the first dispensation, but that’s impossible too you Can’t go back in time.. this is the problem when you misinterpret the Bibles timeline. It’s a kind of blasphemy. You shouldn’t over ride Jesus-God , by suggesting following of ancient laws and practices that’s disobeying the timeline of the Bible, plain and simple brother, don’t over complicate things, that’s what the law does. Remember the holocaust, think of all those poor people that didn’t know Jesus. A tear should roll down our cheek ,not the action of reading out a bunch of ancient laws on diet and Saturday Sabbath on to people while pounding your chest. Brother, if that thought doesn’t change your mind, nothing will ,you’re a law soul. Please I beg of you,Set your heart on Jesus, not a bunch of laws.
Ric Joyner
Danny very well said on your post just now. Torah Keepers have poor biblical study methods. You nailed it. Their gospel is not about becoming born again but keeping the law. So they go back to the Torah of Moses for Israel in the land and it is almost like Jesus our Lord doesn’t exist and what He accomplished. They push 613 laws they pick and choose to follow which James 2:10 says is incorrect. Yet 247 are for the temple which does not exist? In 2000 years do they think our God could have rebuilt it? Of course. Dis He? No. The point of Torah came. But Christ came to save as many hearts and cause them to be born again to eternal life. Acts 26:18 That is the new covenant jer 31:31 as you said. But Jesus was the same God on Mt Sinai as on Mt Beatitudes who showed how to interpret Scriptures. It was about the law hitting the heart and revealing sin. Christ wanted the religious leaders and disciples to know this is about sin and motive not keeping rules and feasts. So through the disciples (12 new Moses) He gave 1642 Greek imperatives which are commands like the 613 Hebrew imperatives. Acts 2:42 so why are they not adding all the laws together to be intellectually honest? That is a great question. Why follow Moses and Not Christ? Weird. Christ’ very agenda was shared with Paul in acts 26:18 and it matches your points. No one can keep any laws as our sinful flesh is not capable .so Christ out His Holy Spirit in us. He fulfilled the law by paying our sin debt as you said and came as the prophets foretold. We are in a new dispensation! Well said Danny! We have the Holy Spirit now. Let us all follow Christ as Our Redeemer said and obey His apostles and live John 14:15. Submit to Him to be plsing that is our goal.
Anonymous
If I give you a simple, one sentence response and you respond with a wall of text, you may be having cognitive dissonance. Please, be aware of it. We are all susceptible to it if we’re not careful.
Ric, I don’t know how after all these years you still leave out that TO/HRM wants to follow all commandments from Moshe, Yahushua and Apostles because they all come from YHWH.
Denny, you’re missing some understanding.
Do a search for: Eliyah Trinity, Oneness or None of the Above
Ric and Denny, we can take this to a voice chat or an online conference. Are comfortable using discord?
Ric Joyner
Anon a zoom meeting would be great. Here is my comment back to you.
You said: “If I give you a simple, one sentence response and you respond with a wall of text, you may be having cognitive dissonance. Please, be aware of it. We are all susceptible to it if we’re not careful.”
Anon, the problem is he is not under compulsion to follow your rules of how to answer. That is kind of weird. He post was excellent. Danny does not need a lecture from you. Isn’t placing yourself in a superior position? And it is rude.
“Ric, I don’t know how after all these years you still leave out that TO/HRM wants to follow all commandments from Moshe, Yahushua and Apostles because they all come from YHWH.” I am sorry but this is false. That may be true for you as you speak correctly however I have not seen that in any Torah Keeping discussions. What I have seen is people abandoning Paul and even Christ. Yes Christ. So if you believe what you said about Christ, Moses, and the Disciples great. But that is rare. There is a poster named Robert here that did not understand that talking about the law of Moses and the 613 with feasts is nearly all the talk on here. It is breaking up families, encouraging legalism, a false Gospel and even polygamy and sacrifice of animals! The logic goes like this: Jesus did not come to abolish the law and He kept the Law so we must keep the 613 (James 2:10 warns) but they rarely ever talk about the 1624 Greek imperatives given by Christ and the Disciples. VERY RARELY. Robert mentioned that he was saying I was saying that we are now supposed to keep both. And if their is intellectual honesty Torah Keepers would indeed talk about this. But the point of the law in Hebrew and Greek is no one could keep them. But we have the Holy Spirit. Even Peter and Barabbas were living like Greeks until legalistic torah keepers came from James. (See Galatians). Therefore, on the MT of Transfiguration God the Father with Moses and Elijah there said “This is My beloved Son, now listen to Him. Are we now to listen to Torah Keepers who are practicing Judaism? Read about it here. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/belief/articles/observing-torah-like-jesus
Let us all follow Christ not Judaism.
Your comment: “Denny, you’re missing some understanding.” This is a terrible comment to make from your perspective. He did an excellent job refuting the Torah Keeping heresy. I think for some reason there appears to be a disconnect that you feel you are above this person. I have gone to your website and seen your posts here and will say it is Torah Keeping 101.
You Said. “Do a search for: Eliyah Trinity, Oneness or None of the Above” Danny, feel free but what you will see is a Torah Keeping propaganda site. And many years of it.
Ric and Denny, we can take this to a voice chat or an online conference. Are comfortable using discord? Ric: We certainly can do it on zoom any time.
Denny well done again and keep going. Thank you.
Anonymous
Denny/Ric, I apologize if I offended you. I’m not in a superior position. We all have to be careful of cognitive dissonance. Your responses have signs of it.
Denny and Ric are missing some understanding. I did too. That’s how I can tell you both are. It doesn’t mean I’m above or better than anyone. I’m probably missing understanding too and appreciate when someone tells me.
Ric, search for Eliyah Ministries. They’ve been online since 1995 teaching TO/HRM and Yahushua and Apostle commands. They have studies going through every command of Messiah and Apostles up to Corinthians.
How can you say the site is propaganda when you say “What I have seen is people abandoning Paul and even Christ. Yes Christ. So if you believe what you said about Christ, Moses, and the Disciples great. But that is rare.”
If you think the site is 101, most of your points have been 101. The site responds to it in detail. You missed a lot if you just skimmed the site. If you think their response is poor Biblical study methods, I look forward to your response to their responses.
Ryan
Dear Denny,
Hello Denny, Ryan here. It was great to read your thoughts. I can tell that you are passionate about serving Jesus. I applaud you for that. One thing you should be careful of is using this “seven dispensations” defense. The reason for this is two-fold.
First, this idea of dispensationalism comes from, as you call them, the “masonic Jews”. If you ever care to look, check out tractate Sanhedrin 97A & B in the Babylonian Talmud. It is there that you will find the origins of dispensational theology. So be careful about arguing against a group of people, only to use their beliefs to support your own. You are unknowingly agreeing with those against whom you argue.
It is true that te’udot (predestined times) exist; however, trying to rigidly apply them to segments of history, as dispensationalists attempt to do, is difficult. As an example, you mention that we are in the “grace” dispensation. You undoubtedly believe that this period began at the resurrection of Jesus. The problem with this thinking is that the first expression of grace happened in the Garden of Eden, when YHVH made garments of animal skins for Adam and Eve. This “covering” of their nakedness, both spiritual and physical, was a complete act of grace on behalf of our Lord. The sacrifice of the animal made atonement for their sin, and the skins replaced their original covering. We also see that Noah “found grace in the eyes of the Lord.” The Covenant of the Pieces in Genesis 15 demonstrates that Abraham and his seed would receive grace through the death of God himself if Abraham’s seed broke covenant. And of course the sacrificial system given to Moses is a massive expression of grace. The Hebrews would be able to postpone their own death by supplying a temporary, albeit imperfect, animal sacrifice. So from Genesis 3 to the present day, God has been showing His people grace — that is to say, there has never been a period of “no grace”. So now dispensationalists suggest we are in the “Age of Grace”. This of course insults the Spirit of Grace that has been at work from the beginning. Grace was not invented at the cross. Having said that, let’s move on to the second point.
The Age of Torah (law or instruction) is, according to your theory, the sixth dispensation. Law of course is a function of government. In your theory the “Age of Government” begins after the Flood. Nowhere in scripture is it implied that God is suggesting to Noah to begin creating governments to rule mankind. This “Age of Government” theory comes from your “masonic Jews” who invented a system known as the “noachide laws”. These “noachide laws” were invented by rabbinic Jews to try to “tame” the barbarous gentiles, among whom the Jews were forced to dwell in the diaspora.
In fact, the idea of an age of government also began in Eden. When God gave Adam and Eve dominion over the Earth, He (God) was making a suzerain-vassel treaty between Adam and Himself. With God as the suzerain and Adam as the vassel king, God established the first government on the Earth. With governments come laws — such as don’t eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. After the fall there were a number of other laws we can discern. Among them are sacrificial ordinances and festival meetings. These can be seen in the story of Cain and Abel. This idea of the development of laws can be seen throughout the “dispensations”. In fact, Genesis 26:5 states that Abraham, “…obeyed My (God’s) voice and kept my charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws (torah).” So the “Age of Government” technically began in Eden, just like the “Age of Grace”.
So Denny, law is an expression of God’s grace. So in light of Jesus’ earthly ministry, Paul can say, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31)
God’s laws do not ever completely disappear. What happens is there are changes in governments (administrations). So God’s law under the Levitical priesthood was applied differently than it is under the Melchizedek priesthood. Let me give you some examples.
The law of adultery is that if there are two or three witnesses accusing one of marital infidelity, the adulterer is to be stoned (not withstanding the law of Sotah found in Numbers 5). So under the Aaronic priesthood there is accusation, judgment, and then condemnation. Under the Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus, the same law is adjudicated by Jesus Himself by way of His saying, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you? She said, ‘no one, Lord’. And Jesus said to her, ‘Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” (John 8) So the Pharisees were trying to judge her according to the Levitical system, but Jesus judged her according to the Melchizedek system. The Melchizedek system does not function according to accusation, judgment, and condemnation like the Levitical administration. The Melchizedek administration functions according to accusation, mercy, and no condemnation. This is portrayed in Romans 8:1.
Another example can be seen in the law of the rebellious son. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). In this case if a son is rebellious, he is to be stoned to death after a guilty verdict by the city elders. Under the Melchizedek order, however, we see the Parable of the Lost Son. (Luke 15:11-32) In this story, the son is not stoned. After he repents, the son is welcomed back due to the father’s mercy and lovingkindness. It is not that the laws of the rebellious son or adultery have been abrogated. Those laws are simply adjudicated differently.
Therefore Denny, we must be careful that we do not sin more so that grace may abound. We must, as Malachi tells us, “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments”. (Malachi 4:4) But we must also speak and act on behalf of that law in light of the priesthood of Jesus. As James 2:12-13 so poignantly states, “So speak and so do as those who will be judged buy the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
Blessings,
Ryan
Denny Stewart
2 John 1:9-11 ESV
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Ric Joyner
Ryan, I do not know you. I do not know your scholarship. However, I am unclear what you are trying to import into the conversation. Denny has done an outstanding job pushing back on the heresy of Torah Keeping. Dispensational view of scripture in the New Testament was done by scholars such as Paul and not invented by the Jews. The Jews viewed Scripture thru the lens of Pardes which is debated by new testament scholars. We can see the approach can lead to serious misunderstandings of scriptural approach of works rather than allowing scripture to reveal sin. One thing I thought odd is attributing dispensational approach to hermeneutics to Jews and not Clarence Larkin. Another is the Rabbinic view of two scriptures. The writings in the TaNaK vs the Oral law or traditions of the fathers which they view as above the writings! Their commentary is just that manmade commentary. These are what Paul pushed against in Roman 9:30 and resulted in destroying the faith of the people and concluding that the coming Messiah was to liberate the Jews and restore their rule from the Romans.
This lead many to disbelieve in Christ. Now the other odd point you make is Hesed or loving kindness aka Grace was indeed present in the OT. However, with the coming of the Messiah to pay our sin penalty and came as the prophets foretold we live under a new priesthood and indeed have the HS within us. He empowers us by putting the law to please God within us. This is the New Covenant and matthew 5:17-18 are fulfilled as we walk under and in His perfect sacrifice. The Jews did not have that.
I also found it odd that you did not mention James 2:10 in your James scriptures about putting oneself under Torah. God requires perfection. We are not perfect. Christ is God and there is no sin in God. He rescued us from our dead condition to live in new life that Denny laid out. The HS TEACHES US titus 2:11-12 to live pleasing to Christ. The law could not do that. It just showed us sin. But the cross showed us we must place our sin on Christ by faith. Not Judaism, not Torah keeping but lean on Him.
Denny needs no caution about Grace or sin. He is on track and on target. Follow Christ is our watch words. Love Him with your whole heart and soul. The age of Grace is living under His perfection and perfect sacrifice. We are not Israel we are the bride of Christ both Jew and Gentile.
Ryan
Dear Ric,
Hey, how are you? Ryan here. Thank you for commenting on my response to Denny. It seems as if Denny has a good heart. I hope all is well with both you and him. I just wanted to answer some of your statements regarding my response to Denny.
First I want to address your statement that Torah-keeping is a heresy. This will come as a shock to the tens of thousands of Messianic Jews in Israel. Obviously very few are keeping Torah in order to be saved. That is an easy straw man argument to set up and knock down, and is therefore a favorite and an early go-to approach for the anti-Torah crowd. Nevertheless, for Jewish followers of Jesus, keeping the Torah is the only way many of their unbelieving brothers will agree to hear the gospel. Many non-believing Jews will reject a person right away if they are not keeping Torah. Try telling an Orthodox Jew about Jesus while you are eating a ham sandwich or shrimp cocktail. They would immediately tune you out for your lack of consideration for their cultural and religious views. Further, the Torah is God’s law — not Jewish law. Calling God’s law heresy is a bit problematic. It may be something you want to take up with Him. That is almost like those who suspect that 1 Timothy 4:1-5 is an abolition of the dietary laws on the basis that Leviticus 11 is filled with “doctrines of demons”. Just think, God’s law being equated to doctrines of demons. One could almost consider that blasphemous. I am sorry Ric, but Torah-keeping is not a heresy if it is just a lifestyle. If one is trying to earn their salvation through Torah-keeping, then that is a serious problem; however, I honestly do not know a single person who believes that. I am sure that there are some out there, but anyone familiar with sola fide and sola gratia would never take that approach.
Next, you make the statement that dispensational theology was developed by Paul, not by the Jews. I must point something out to you Ric. Paul was a Jew. I know that seems weird, but I assure you that he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, the Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Paul was thoroughly trained in Pharisee doctrine, according to the School of Hillel. Later, after Paul’s conversion, he clearly received training from the Essenes as his writings reflect a great deal of Essene doctrine. Moreover, it must be noted that the Jewish people (specifically the sons of Zadok who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls) had a very well developed understanding of days, weeks, months, seasons, years, sh’mitta cycles, jubilees, 294 year priestly service cycles, and onot (490 cycles). The specific “ages” referred to in tractate Sanhedrin 94 are not a priestly accounting of time, but rather an attempt by Pharisees/Rabbinic Jews to explain time to their adherents. Remember, prior to Constantine, the early Gentile Christians relied heavily on Jewish traditional teachings — including their chronologies. Unfortunately, after the death of the apostles, the priestly methods of counting were lost until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So what was left for the Gentile Church but the Pharisee version of ages…the Age of Desolation, the Age of Torah, and the Age of Messiah. All Gentile Christian dispensational theology grew out of this original model developed by Rabbinic Jews…and of course all based on their oral law, not scripture.
Now when you suggest that Paul taught dispensational theology, I assume you are referring to a few specific verses. Romans 11:25 refers to the “fullness of the Gentiles”. That of course refers to Genesis 48:19 where Jacob says that Ephraim will become a “milo hagoyim” or a fullness of Gentiles. That is not really referring to a time marker, as much as it is Paul saying that all twelve tribes will be saved — even the Northern Kingdom tribes. Next, you may be thinking of Ephesians 1:10, but that is not talking about multiple dispensations. Rather it is referring to one plan (the Mystery) that God had from the beginning of time. In that verse there is one dispensation which time itself fills up to the point of the crucifixion of Jesus. This verse is not unlike Galatians 4:4 which refers to the Gentiles becoming sons of God. But again this is referring to one dispensation of time, from the beginning (Genesis 3:15) to the crucifixion and resurrection. In that verse He redeems those “under the law”, which means those guilty of breaking the law. Obviously this is referring to justification, as most of the letter to the Galatians is referring to being saved by grace through faith. Galatians has nothing to do with living a holy life until one gets to chapter 5:16. So Paul is neither denying Torah-keeping for a lifestyle of holy living, nor is he affirming modern Christian dispensationalism. Now I have read your arguments about how you believe one can only keep commandments by using a Rabbinic model. I completely disagree with this false dilemma. We are repeatedly told to “walk in the Spirit” when keeping commandments. Following a Rabbinic/Pharisee prescription goes against New Testament doctrine, the teachings of Jesus, and for that matter the Tanakh. Lastly, you may be confusing Paul with his associate Luke. In Luke 21:24, the gospel writer refers to the “times of the Gentiles” being fulfilled. This of course refers to Daniel 2 and his prophecy concerning the Gentile kingdoms which will oppress God’s people. This can’t be referring to modern Christian dispensationalism as the “times of the Gentiles” (one dispensation) would be spanning both the “Age of Torah” and the “Age of Grace”.
I understand that dispensational theology can be helpful to a neophyte trying to understand biblical chronology. But trust me, it is a man-made doctrine (starting with the rabbis) that has little to no basis in ancient near eastern thought let alone Second Temple Judaism.
I do want to take a moment to say that I do agree with much of what you said Ric. The Oral Torah is definitely bad and in some areas demonic. I also agree that the HRM/TO movement has some serious problems. In a previous post I referred to the HRM/TO movement to the Wild West. Without the apostolic oversight of the Church, bad doctrine is inevitable.
You also asked me about James 2:10. It is true that under the Levitical system whoever stumbles in one point of the Torah is guilty…period. Under the Melchizedek administration there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Remember chapter 2 begins with the context of the “faith of our Lord Jesus Christ”. That pertains to the faith Jesus left the apostles at His ascension…not the faith He perfectly lived, under the Order of Aaron. James is referring to the faith lived under the priesthood of Jesus. This is seen in His conclusion in verse 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James is not saying that one is justified by keeping the Torah. Rather he is saying that ones faith is authenticated/validated by their obedience to God’s laws. That is, everyone will know you are a follower of Jesus if you love your neighbor. If you are not loving your neighbor, it is unlikely that anyone would identify you as a 1st century Christian. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case in modern Christendom.
On the subject of love, you mentioned that we should love Him with our whole heart and soul. That is a wonderful sentiment, but is bereft of meaning outside the Torah. Both the Old and New Testaments say that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This concept of love in ancient near eastern thought deals with covenant loyalty…not some emotional fuzzy warm feeling. Outside of keeping God’s commandments, there is no way to demonstrate our covenant loyalty (love). If you ever get a chance, try to study ancient near eastern covenant-making. It might help you understand the biblical language, and the overall meaning of what both Jesus and the apostle John mean when referring to loving God by keeping His commandments. Paul also understands these concepts as he quotes Malachi 1:2-3 in Romans 9:13. Paul spends the next couple of chapters describing God’s covenant loyalty (love) for Israel. But again, as James implies, obedience to the law of the Kingdom of God (the royal law or the law of liberty) validates our faith in Jesus. If one is inventing their own law, or engaging in antinomianism, does Jesus know them? We are known by our fruit. When He says, “depart from Me I never knew you”. The reason He does not know them is because they are lawless (without Torah / not demonstrating covenant love). (Matt. 7:15-23) This is also Pauls teaching on spiritual gifts and love in 1 Corinthians 13.
Please forgive me for being so long-winded. I just wanted to address some of your concerns substantively. In parting, I just want to say that 99% of the HRM/TO folks are not your enemy. Just as the lukewarm church of today is not the enemy of the HRM/TO movement. The occultist Alice Bailey refers to the “Externalization of the Hierarchy”. When that occurs, and it soon will, then you will know the enemy. Evil supernaturalism is the enemy Ric…not a bunch of Passover-observing Christians. When fallen angels extend themselves into this realm in a tangible way, you will no longer think of Saturday church-goers as a danger. We need to get a little perspective. I pray that the Lord blesses you and your family.
Ryan
Ric Joyner
Hey all I am sorry this is very long. However the email that I am responding to is very long. I am actually hoping you will read it. The reason is that my response shows the true gospel compared. Be very careful that you do not fall for this movement. Why? As you will see it equates the Gospel to obedience to the Torah and not faith in Christ. You heard me right. Here is my response.
Do not take anything as unloving but iron sharpening Iron.
RIC: CAP LOCKS ON FOR CLARITY AND SEPARATION. PLS DO NOT INSERT THAT THIS IS ANGER IN ANY WAY.
First I want to address your statement that Torah-keeping is a heresy. I DEFINED WHY IT IS A HERESY WHICH YOU WILL CONTINUE HERE IN THE NEXT FOLLOWING WORDs THAT I WILL DISSECT. AGAIN, WE DO NOT KNOW EACH OTHER. SO, TIME FOR ME TO GIVE SOME BACKGROUND. BIBLESTUDYCOMPANY.COM WAS CREATED TO TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO STUDY SCRIPTURE TO LIVE A PRAISEWORTHY LIFE TO GOD. I WAS BORN AGAIN IN AN E-FREE CHURCH AND THEN THE ENEMY SENT ME INTO CHARISMATIC PENTECOSTAL DOCTRINE, WHICH INCIDENTLY MJ AND HRM/TO ARE INVOLVED IN AS WELL. THAT ASIDE, GOD’S WORD IS TO BE HANDLED WITH CARE AND RESPECT. WE DON’T GET TO PUT INTO HIS WORD WHAT WE WANT OUR AGENDA TO BE. IN OTHER WORDS, GLASSES. IF WE HAVE GLASSES TO VIEW THE BIBLE THROUGH THIS IS PROBLEMATIC. IT IS ALSO VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE THOSE GLASSES WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING. THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE CAME IN THE FLESH AS THE WORD OF GOD AND TAUGHT 12 CALLED MEN AS HE DID MOSHE (SEE NUMBERS 12 AND EXODUS 3). HE TRAINED THEM FOR 3.5 YEARS HOW TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE AND DOCTRINE (CORRECT TEACHING). NOTE: I AM NOT WRITING TO INSTRUCT YOU BUT TO THOSE THAT READ THIS THREAD. HIS TEACHING THEM IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SEMINARY EDUCATION. HOWEVER, SEMINARIES ARE MANMADE, BUT THAT DID NOT PRECLUDE THE PROPHETS FROM HAVING SCHOOLS OF PROPHETS TO LEARN GOD’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE PRIESTS TEACHING THE PEOPLE. AND EZRA ALSO TAUGHT THE LAW TO THE PEOPLE. THEREFORE, DILIGENCE IS REQUIRED IN THE APPROPRIATE SCHOOL ONE CHOOSES. I HAVE PURSUED A SEMINARY EDUCATION BECAUSE OF THIS BAD TEACHING IN CHARISMATIC AND PENETOCOSTAL THEOLOGY, MESSIANIC JUDAISM AND TORAH OBSERVANCE. I AM CURRENTLY A PH.D. CANDIDATE AND HAVE SEEN EVERY TORAH ARGUMENT OUT THERE INCLUDING THE ONES YOU LAID OUT IN YOUR POST WHICH ARE JUST TALKING POINTS FROM POOR BIBLICAL STUDY METHODS. THIS IS NOT TO OFFEND YOU IT IS AN OBSERVABLE FACT. IN FACT, I WAS IN MJ FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND MY CLOSE FRIEND, DR. BARUCH KORMAN OF LOVEISRAEL.ORG, HAS MUCH TO SAY ABOUT MESSIANIC JUDAISM IN ISRAEL AND IT DOES NOT MATCH WHAT YOU SAY IN THE LEAST. FOR THE MOST PART THEY ARE NOT TORAH OBSERVANT, AND BARUCH RECENTLY SHARED THAT ORTHODOX JUDAISM IS VERY STAUNCH THAT ONE CANNOT KEEP TORAH AS THERE IS NO TEMPLE. IF YOU POINT TO CURRENT JUDAISM, YOU HAD BETTER KNOW THAT. AND (CHRISTIANS WHICH ALL OF US ARE THAT BELIEVE IN CHRIST WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR AS THAT IS WHAT THE HS CALLS US IN [Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16] TYPICALLY WILL LIVE TOGETHER IMMORALLY IN ISRAEL AND THEN MARRY ONLY WHEN THEY DECIDE THEY WILL DECIDE TO HAVE CHILDREN! THIS IS A CONCERN FOR DR. BARUCH WHO LIVES IN ASHDOD.
THE EDUCATION THE DISCIPLES HAD IS DISPLAYED IN THE CHAPTERS OF MATTHEW 5-7 WHICH YOU MISHANDLED. WE WILL GET TO THAT LATER. TORAH KEEPING IS A WORKS BASED SALVATION TO PROVE THAT ONE LOVES JESUS MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE (ELITISM) AND DENIGRATES THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST AND IT’s IMPERFECTIONS. A TRUE CHURCH DOES NOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. THE LAW POINTED TO CHRIST AND WHAT HE DID ON THE CROSS. TORAH KEEPING POINTS TO MOSES AND THE LAW OF CHRIST. TORAH KEEPERS NEED TO BE AWARE THAT THEIR TALKING POINT IS THAT ONE MUST KEEP THE 613 LAWS WHICH ARE HEBREW IMPERATIVES. BUT HOW? BY LIVING LIKE JEWS. PRACTICING JUDAISM IS THE CENTERPIECE TO THIS MOVEMENT. CHRIST SAID TO FOLLOW HIM. HE WAS THE OBJECT OF THE TORAH. HE WAS THE PERFECT SACRIFICE, AND WE DO NOT NEED TO ADD TRYING TO KEEP THE LAWS OF ISRAEL AND TWIST SCRIPTURE TO SAY WE DO. JESUS CHRIST OUR CREATOR DIED ON A BLOODY CROSS TO SHED HIS BLOOD AS THE LAMB OF GOD AND BE THAT PERFECT PROPITIATION (WIPING ALL SIN FROM US) SACRIFICE TO FIX ADAM AND EVES “SINLESS TO SIN” LACK OF FAITH IN GOD’S WORD AND TO DIE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD’S SIN. YET TORAH KEEPERS WHO ARE MAINLY GENTILES COME AND SAY NOW WE NEED TO ABANDON THE CHURCH CHRIST DIED FOR AND LIVE LIKE JEWS AND FOLLOW MOSES! THIS IS HERESY. THE TORAH DEMANDS PERFECTION. CHRIST SAID SO. WE HAVE NO HOPE WITHOUT HIM AND OUR FAITH IN PLACING OUR SIN ON HIM. YET PEOPLE FROM JAMES WHO WERE PHARISEES CAME TO PLACE PEOPLE BACK UNDER MOSES. MOSES POINTED TO THE PROPHET TO COME. PAUL SAYS SO HERE. GAL 1:6-12
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7, which is really not another; only some are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
BOTTOM LINE? PUSHING PEOPLE TO KEEPING THE LAW LIKE JEWS AND THEN BEING ELITIST ABOUT IT. “WE LOVE JESUS MORE…SO WE KEEP TORAH”.
THEY WERE UNDER ANOTHER COVENANT FROM EXODUS 20 THAT INCLUDED THE LAW OF MOSES GIVEN BY GOD. GENTILES WERE EXCLUDED UNTIL CHRIST UNLESS THEY JOINED JUDAISM. JUDAISM DISOBEYED GOD IN MANY WAYS, AND IN ROMANS 9:30, PAUL SHOWS WHY. THEY DID NOT TAKE HIS WORD WITH FAITH BUT WITH WORKS. TORAH KEEPING IS POOR BIBLICAL STUDY METHODS WRAPPED IN EISEGESIS (PUTTING BIAS INTO THEIR READING OF THE BIBLE). MANY OF THE COMMENTS IN YOUR POST ARE EXACTLY IN THAT WAY.
This will come as a shock to the tens of thousands of Messianic Jews in Israel. ACTUALLY, NO IT WON’T. MESSIANIC JUDAISM IS MUCH DIFFERENT IN THE STATES THAN IN ISRAEL. IN FACT, THE STATES VERSION IS RABBINIC JUDAISM AS THEIR WORSHIP SERVICE. THEY PARADE THE TORAH AND KISS IT AND USE SEDURS, ETC. IN ISRAEL, NOT SO. I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT YOU KNOW AS YOU HAVE NOT SHARED. BUT I BELIEVE BARUCH WOULD TELL YOU DIFFERENTLY. SO, LET’S NOT PUT THEM ON A PEDESTAL.
Obviously, very few are keeping Torah in order to be saved. That is an easy straw man argument to set up and knock down and is, therefore a favorite and an early go-to approach for the anti-Torah crowd.
WHAT IS THE STRAW MAN? PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY DO NOT KEEP TORAH TO BE SAVED IN THE MOVEMENT. BUT THEY GET “WEIRD” WHEN THEY ARE NOT ON TORAH KEEPING LIFESTYLE WHICH ACTS AND WORSHIP LIKE JEWS AND PUSH OTHERS TO DO THE SAME. WHY DO I SAY THAT? BECAUSE TORAH KEEPING IS KEEPING JEWISH PRACTICES. THEY ARE FOLLOWING JUDAISM, THINKING THEY ARE FOLLOWING CHRIST. IT IS A VERY SUBTLE LIE. JESUS CALLED US TO FOLLOW HIM. THAT IS OUR JOB TOO. WE ARE TO SUBMIT TO CHRIST WHERE WE ARE AND NOT PRETEND TO BE JEWISH. THAT IS NO STRAW MAN, AS THAT IS AN OBSERVABLE FACT. THEY ADD TO THE GOSPEL. WE LOVE JESUS WE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH NOW; WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE TORAH. WEIRDLY THERE ARE 613 HEBREW IMPERATIVES, BUT THROUGH CHRIST AND HIS 12 DISCIPLES, HE GAVE US 1642 GREEK IMPERATIVES FOR US TO FOLLOW HIM AND ALLOWED GENTILES TO COME INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH, AND NOT BE ISRAEL. WE ARE BACK TO ROMANS 11, WHERE WE ARE IN ABRAHAM’S FAITH, NOT ISRAEL, WHICH WAS DOING WORKS. WHICH WILL WE BE? FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST OR FOLLOWERS OF THE TORAH AS DEFINED BY TORAH KEEPERS. JAMES 2:10 SAYS BE CAREFUL. SO HERE IS THE TORAH KEEPERS LOGIC. WE NEED TO FOLLOW GOD’S LAWS IN THE TORAH FOR ISRAEL. BUT WE WILL NEGLECT THE LAWS THAT CHRIST GAVE US? APPARENTLY, SO. WHY NOT ADD THEM BOTH? THAT IS A LOGICAL AND CONSISTENT APPLICATION OF SCRIPTURE. WHY NOT? BECAUSE THERE IS A BENT OF DECEPTION AND ALMOST DISREGARD FOR THE MESSIAH AND HIS COMMANDMENTS WHICH IS THE SAME GOD ON MOUNT SINAI AS ON MT BEATITUDES. HIS POINT WAS THAT WE MUST HAVE A PROPRIATION FOR SIN. WE ARE NOT PERFECT. HE IS. COME TO CHRIST BY PLACING OUR SIN ON HIM BY FAITH AS THE JEWS DID IN THE DESERT WITH THE TWO LAMBS SLAIN PER DAY. ONLY CHRIST WAS THE PERFECT ONCE-FOR-ALL ALL SACRFICE. WE HAVE A NEW PRIESTHOOD. CHRIST IS OUR ALL IN ALL AND SUFFICENT. THEREFORE, JESUS SAID, “IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY *MY* COMMANDMENTS” JOHN 14:15. NO AMOUNT OF TORAH-KEEPING VERSE TWISTING WILL GET YOU TO POINT TO THE 613 BUT WE NEED TO OBEY *HIS COMMANDMENTS AND NEW COVENANT*. THE APOSTLES LAY OUT NEARLY ALL OF THE TORAH WITH ONE EXCEPT. SABBATH KEEPING. WE CAN WORSHIP ON ANY DAY. CHRIST IS OUR REST. SO, KEEP ALL OF THE LAWS IF YOU WISH. BUT DO IT IN HIS POWER AND NOT BASED ON WORKS, AND DO NOT ATTACK THE CHURCH OR OTHER PEOPLE. THAT IS LEGALISM.
NOTE: ALWAYS READ ALL SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT: Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
TORAH KEEPERS PICK AND CHOOSE THE LAWS TO KEEP. WE NOW HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US JEREMIAH 31:31. WE ARE UNDER A NEW COVENANT. AGAIN, I AM NOT INSTRUCTING YOU BUT ENCOURAGING THOSE WHO READ THIS TO RUN FROM TORAH KEEPING. IT IS A FALSE GOSPEL AND FALSE TEACHING. MESSIANIC JUDAISM DISAVOWS TORAH KEEPERS AND THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT, YET THERE IS HYPOCRISY THERE. WHEN I WAS IN THE MOVEMENT, I SAW MANY GENTILES GOING TO THE MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUES TO PRACTICE RABBINIC JUDAISM, WHICH IS THEIR FORMAT OF WORSHIP AND WERE SECRETLY TORAH KEEPERS. SO, IN ONE SENSE, MJ WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THESE MOVEMENTS. WEIRDLY, VERY FEW ACTUAL JEWS ARE PART OF MJ, BUT IT IS MAINLY MADE UP OF GENTILES WANTING TO REJECT THE CURRENT CHURCH. https://mjaa.org/1-5-2014-one-law-two-sticks-a-critical-look-at-the-hebrew-roots-movement/
Nevertheless, for Jewish followers of Jesus, keeping the Torah is the only way many of their unbelieving brothers will agree to hear the gospel. NOW THAT IS TRULY A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT IN LOGICAL FALLACY.
Many non-believing Jews will reject a person right away if they are not keeping Torah. THIS IS A TOTALLY FALSE STATEMENT WITH NO BASIS IN REALITY.
Try telling an Orthodox Jew about Jesus while you are eating a ham sandwich or shrimp cocktail. FALSE. ORTHODOX JEWS DO NOT KEEP THE TORAH IN ISRAEL AND DRINK LIKE CRAZY, ESPECIALLY THE HASIDIC. BUT YOU ARE CONFUSING THE TORAH FOR THE ORAL LAW. BARUCH, WHO IS ORTHODOX TRAINED, SHOWS US THEY DID NOT FOLLOW AND CANNOT FOLLOW TORAH TODAY. THEY FOLLOW THE ORAL LAW. CHRIST EVEN MENTIONS THIS WHEN HE TOLD THE JEWS THAT WHEN PHARISEES SIT IN THE SEAT OF MOSHE, THEY ARE TO LISTEN TO THE PHARISEES AS IT IS THE WORD OF GOD BUT DO NOT DO WHAT THEY DO. THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE TORAH (THE WORD OF GOD) BUT THEIR MANMADE TALMUD WHICH IS A COMMENTARY. ACTUALLY SO DOES TORAH KEEPERS.
They would immediately tune you out for your lack of consideration for their cultural and religious views. FASLE STATEMENT MADE IN TOTAL IGNORANCE.
Further, the Torah is God’s law — not Jewish law. YOUR POINT? Calling God’s law heresy is a bit problematic. NOW YOU ARE LYING. THUS BREAKING THE TORAH BY MISREPRESENTING ME. I AM SAYING THE TORAH-KEEPING HERESY IS ADDING TO THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. JESUS PLUS TORAH. THEIR GOSPEL IS CLEAR. COME TO CHRIST, BUT GET OUT OF THE CHURCH, AND WE WILL TEACH YOU TO KEEP TORAH LIKE JEWISH BELIEVERS (THIS IS THEIR ONLY PATTERN). BUT CHRIST SAID TO FOLLOW HIM.
It may be something you want to take up with Him. RYAN BEING PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE IS NOT APPROPRIATE AND SHOWS YOU ARE LOSING THE ARGUMENT. NOT ONCE HAVE I BEEN PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE TO YOU. I AM STRAIGHT WITH YOU. YOU CAN DO BETTER, PLEASE. SARCASTIC IS ALSO A FORM OF PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR.
That is almost like those who suspect that 1 Timothy 4:1-5 is an abolition of the dietary laws on the basis that Leviticus 11 is filled with “doctrines of demons”. Just think, God’s law being equated to doctrines of demons. YOU ARE SO THICK INTO THE HERESY IT IS MIND-BOGGLING. NOT BEING MEAN, BUT REALLY WILL PRAY FOR YOU. THE POOR HANDLING OF SCRIPTURE IS HARD TO READ.
One could almost consider that blasphemous. AGAIN, THIS IS PURE LEGALISM. CALLING OTHERS TO COME UNDER THE DIETARY LAWS, MISREPRESENTING PEOPLE’S VIEW, AND THEN SAYING SCRIPTURE IN THE NT IS WANTING YOU TO EAT KOSHER IS WAY OUT THERE. BUT ROM 14 AND COL 2 SAY GO FOR IT, RYAN JUST DON’T PUT IT ON OTHER PEOPLE, WHICH IS WHAT TORAH KEEPERS DO.
I am sorry Ric, but Torah-keeping is not a heresy if it is just a lifestyle. NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE. BUT THAT IS A FALSE CONCLUSION. IT IS A HERESY, AND CHRIST NEVER CALLED US TO FOLLOW TORAH. HE CALLED US TO FOLLOW HIM AND HIS LAWS. BEING A DISCIPLE IS BEING SUBMITTED TO GOD’S WORD (ALL OF IT) AND ASKING FOR HIS HELP TO LIVE PRAISEWORTHY. AND AS DAVID ASKED IN PSALM 51 TO SEARCH ME TO FIND MY WICKED WAYS. THAT IS WHAT THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD IS FOR. SEARCH ME LORD TO FIND MY SIN MOTIVES NOT THE LIST OF TO DOS. BUT OUR FAITH (TRUSTING IN GOD’S WORD TO LEAD AND GUIDE US) IS OUR HOPE. THIS IS HIS WORLD, AND THUS HIS RULES, AND THUS LEADS US TO HIS WILL. NOT TRUSTING IN KEEPING TORAH BUT IN CHRIST.
If one is trying to earn their salvation through Torah-keeping, then that is a serious problem; however, I honestly do not know a single person who believes that. I HEAR IT ALMOST EVERY DAY EVEN FROM YOUR MOUTH. YOU ARE KEEPING THE TORAH BECAUSE YOU LOVE JESUS MORE THAN THAT ANTINOMIN (ANTI LAW AKA ANTI-TORAH) CHRISTIANS, BUT WE ARE NOT ANTI-TORAH KEEPERS. WE CAN LEARN FROM THE TORAH AS ANYONE CAN BUT DO NOT NEED TO EAT KOSHER OR KEEP THE SABBATH, ETC. THOSE ARE OUTWARD THINGS. WE FOCUS ON HIS COMMANDS AS HE COMMANDED. WE LOVE CHRIST AND WANT TO FOLLOW HIM AND HIS APOSTLES’ ACTS 2:42. YOU WOULD NOT HEAR IT FROM PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE WITH AS YOU ARE WITH PEOPLE THAT AGREE WITH YOU AND THEREFORE HAVE CONFIRMATION BIAS.
I am sure that there are some out there, but anyone familiar with sola fide and sola gratia would never take that approach. NONESENSICAL.
Next, you make the statement that dispensational theology was developed by Paul, not by the Jews. I must point something out to you Ric. Paul was a Jew. I know that seems weird, but I assure you that he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, the Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Paul was thoroughly trained in Pharisee doctrine, according to the School of Hillel. Later, after Paul’s conversion, he clearly received training from the Essenes as his writings reflect a great deal of Essene doctrine. Moreover, it must be noted that the Jewish people (specifically the sons of Zadok who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls) had a very well developed understanding of days, weeks, months, seasons, years, sh’mitta cycles, jubilees, 294 year priestly service cycles, and onot (490 cycles). The specific “ages” referred to in tractate Sanhedrin 94 are not a priestly accounting of time, but rather an attempt by Pharisees/Rabbinic Jews to explain time to their adherents. Remember, prior to Constantine, the early Gentile Christians relied heavily on Jewish traditional teachings — including their chronologies. Unfortunately, after the death of the apostles, the priestly methods of counting were lost until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So what was left for the Gentile Church but the Pharisee version of ages…the Age of Desolation, the Age of Torah, and the Age of Messiah. All Gentile Christian dispensational theology grew out of this original model developed by Rabbinic Jews…and of course all based on their oral law, not scripture.
Now when you suggest that Paul taught dispensational theology, I assume you are referring to a few specific verses. Romans 11:25 refers to the “fullness of the Gentiles”. That of course refers to Genesis 48:19 where Jacob says that Ephraim will become a “milo hagoyim” or a fullness of Gentiles. That is not really referring to a time marker, as much as it is Paul saying that all twelve tribes will be saved — even the Northern Kingdom tribes. Next, you may be thinking of Ephesians 1:10, but that is not talking about multiple dispensations. Rather it is referring to one plan (the Mystery) that God had from the beginning of time. In that verse there is one dispensation which time itself fills up to the point of the crucifixion of Jesus. This verse is not unlike Galatians 4:4 which refers to the Gentiles becoming sons of God. But again this is referring to one dispensation of time, from the beginning (Genesis 3:15) to the crucifixion and resurrection. In that verse He redeems those “under the law”, which means those guilty of breaking the law. Obviously this is referring to justification, as most of the letter to the Galatians is referring to being saved by grace through faith. Galatians has nothing to do with living a holy life until one gets to chapter 5:16. So Paul is neither denying Torah-keeping for a lifestyle of holy living, nor is he affirming modern Christian dispensationalism. Now I have read your arguments about how you believe one can only keep commandments by using a Rabbinic model. I completely disagree with this false dilemma. We are repeatedly told to “walk in the Spirit” when keeping commandments. Following a Rabbinic/Pharisee prescription goes against New Testament doctrine, the teachings of Jesus, and for that matter the Tanakh. Lastly, you may be confusing Paul with his associate Luke. In Luke 21:24, the gospel writer refers to the “times of the Gentiles” being fulfilled. This of course refers to Daniel 2 and his prophecy concerning the Gentile kingdoms which will oppress God’s people. This can’t be referring to modern Christian dispensationalism as the “times of the Gentiles” (one dispensation) would be spanning both the “Age of Torah” and the “Age of Grace”.
I understand that dispensational theology can be helpful to a neophyte trying to understand biblical chronology. But trust me, it is a man-made doctrine (starting with the rabbis) that has little to no basis in ancient near eastern thought let alone Second Temple Judaism. THIS IS REALLY GOOD HISTORY RYAN. HOWEVER, YOU TOOK MY WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY IS DERIVED FROM THE NT BUT NOT SPECIFICALLY TAUGHT BY JEWS IN THEIR PARDES THEOLOGY, AS MENTIONED. THIS POINT IS NONSENSE ANYWAY AND A DISTRACTION FROM THE FACT THAT TORAH KEEPING IS A HERESY THAT PAUL OUTLINES WELL, AND I HAVE GIVEN YOU VERSES.
I do want to take a moment to say that I do agree with much of what you said Ric. The Oral Torah is definitely bad and in some areas demonic. I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING AS DEMONIC. NOT IN THE LEAST. THEY ARE HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS THAT THE JEWS FOLLOW, NOT SCRIPTURE. THEY ARE COMMENTARY.
I also agree that the HRM/TO movement has some serious problems. VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS.
In a previous post, I referred to the HRM/TO movement to the Wild West. Without the apostolic oversight of the Church, bad doctrine is inevitable. HMMM, THEN WHY NOT GET PROPER BIBLICAL TRAINING FROM A CREDIBLE SEMINARY AND BEGIN TO APPLY IT? GET UNDER NT APOSTOLIC TRAINING?
You also asked me about James 2:10. It is true that under the Levitical system whoever stumbles in one point of the Torah is guilty…period. Under the Melchizedek administration there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit. THIS AGAIN IS A CLASSIC EISEGESIS MOVE BY PUTTING TORAH OBSERVANT THINKING INTO THE TEXT. WE CAN DISCOUNT THIS AS INAPPROPRIATE.
Remember chapter 2 begins with the context of the “faith of our Lord Jesus Christ”. That pertains to the faith Jesus left the apostles at His ascension…not the faith He perfectly lived, under the Order of Aaron. VERY FALSE. FAITH IS PLACING YOUR FULL WEIGHT IN TRUST IN CHRIST. NOT IN ANY SEGEMENTING LIKE YOU ARE DOING. SORRY, RYAN THIS IS FALSE TEACHING. I MEAN THIS KINDLY, BUT YOU ARE VERY INDOCTRINATED IN THIS FALSE CONSTRUCTION.
James is referring to the faith lived under the priesthood of Jesus. NOPE. This is seen in His conclusion in verse 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” THIS IS REFERRING TO GRACE AND TRUE SALVATION. IF ONE IS BORN AGAIN THEY WILL BE MOVED AWAY FROM FALSE TEACHING LIKE TORAH KEEPING AND MOVE TOWARD LIVING BY THE SPIRIT AND MOVING AWAY FROM UNGODLINESS. TITUS 2:11-12 HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? NOT WITH KEEPING TORAH. BUT AN INWARD CHANGED HEART BECAUSE TORAH (ALL 613 AND 1642) IS IN OUR HEARTS NOW JER 31:31. BUT PEOPLE IN THE TORAH MOVEMENT EQUATE KEEPING JEWISH PRACTICES AS THE SAME AS TORAH KEEPING AND IT IS NOT. IT IS LETTING SCRIPTURE HIT OUR HEARTS AND EXPOSE OUR SIN MOTIVES. ONE MOTIVE OF TORAH KEEPERS WAS, “WHY AM I UNDER PRESSURE TO KEEP A LAW FOR THE LAND OF ISRAEL THAT I DO NOT LIVE IN, WHICH WOULD BE LIKE MOVING ME MOVING TO GERMANY AND TRYING TO KEEP AMERICAN LAW IN GERMANY. “KEEPING TORAH IS FALSE TEACHING. SUBMIT TO CHRIST.”
James is not saying that one is justified by keeping the Torah. Rather he is saying that ones faith is authenticated/validated by one’s obedience to God’s laws. NO, IT IS THEIR FAITH IN CHRIST. OUT OF THE CHANGED HEART COMES OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD. THE ENEMY WANTS TO DECEIVE US INTO WORKS. HE DID THAT IN THE GARDEN. ADAM AND EVE’S SIN WAS NOT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD’S LAW, BUT IT WAS NOT BELIEVING IN GOD’S WORD. OUT OF THEIR HEART OF LACK OF FAITH IN HIS WORD, THEY ACTED IN DISOBEDIENCE. THIS IS THE BIGGEST FACTOR IN TORAH KEEPING MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE GOSPEL AND THE WORD OF GOD. THEY EQUATE FAITH AS OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD. BUT IT IS FAITH IN GOD’S WORD, AND CHRIST IS THE CULMINATION OF FAITH IN GOD’S WORD.
That is, everyone will know you are a follower of Jesus if you love your neighbor. If you are not loving your neighbor, it is unlikely that anyone would identify you as a 1st century Christian. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case in modern Christendom. OR IN TORAH KEEPING. VERY FEW TORAH KEEPERS ON THIS PAGE ARE LOVING OR RESPECTFUL. THERE WERE MANY TIMES YOU MISREPRESENTED MY POINTS, PUT YOUR OWN VIEW OF WHAT I WAS SAYING AND EVEN LIED ABOUT MY POINTS. THAT IS NOT LOVING. TORAH KEEPERS HAVE MUCH POLYGAMY, SACRIFICING ANIMALS, SAY THEY LOVE JESUS MORE THAN CHRISTIANS, AND ACCUSE OF PAGANISM WHEN NO PAGANISM EXISTS EXCEPT IN TORAH KEEPERS BAD HISTORY. YEAH, LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
On the subject of love, you mentioned that we should love Him with our whole heart and soul. That is a wonderful sentiment, but is bereft of meaning outside the Torah. FALSE STATEMENT. WHY IS IT FALSE? WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US IN A NEW COVENANT. THIS COMMENT PROVES WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. THIS IS A WORKS-BASED MAINTENANCE OF YOUR SALVATION THROUGH KEEPING TORAH AND NOT IN FAITH IN GOD’S WORD.
Both the Old and New Testaments say that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. YES, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDS, WHICH IS PUTTING OUR FAITH IN HIS WORD AND IN HIM. HIS COMMANDMENTS WERE GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES. NO TORAH KEEPER HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING BACK TO ME ABOUT THE MT OF TRANSFIGURATION WHERE GOD THE FATHER CAME IN A CLOUD TO SAY WITH MOSES AND ELIJAH THERE “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON NOW LISTEN TO HIM. ” SO WHEN WILL PEOPLE IN TORAH-KEEPING MOVEMENTS STOP LISTENING TO THEIR TEACHERS AND FOLLOW CHRIST?
This concept of love in ancient near eastern thought deals with covenant loyalty…not some emotional fuzzy warm feeling. Outside of keeping God’s commandments, there is no way to demonstrate our covenant loyalty (love). YES IN FAITH IN GOD’S WORD. SEE THIS IS WHAT THIS IS REALLY ALL ABOUT—a CHECKLIST OF PROVING MY LOVE FOR GOD WITH GOING UNDER TORAH. I AM SO GLAD YOU EXPOSED THIS MOTIVE. AS IT IS ALL MAN-CENTERED, NOT CHRIST CENTERED. WE CAN COME TO THE CROSS AND TELL THE LORD WE HAVE NOTHING AS SINNERS. WE ARE CREATED BY HIM FOR HIM, AND THAT WE PLACE OUR FAITH IN HIM TO SAVE US. NOW, HE CAUSES US TO BE BORN AGAIN. WE ARE CHANGED BY FAITH INTO NEW CREATURES. WE ARE DEAD TO THE WORLD BECAUSE WE IDENTIFY WITH CHRIST ON THE CROSS. NO PERSON DEAD IS UNDER THE LAW. BUT THE SPIRIT RAISES US TO NEW LIFE IN CHRIST. WE ARE HIS BY BEING BORN AGAIN. ARE YOU BORN AGAIN IF YOU ARE READING THIS? BOW YOUR HEAD BEFORE OUR GOD AND KING AND PLACE YOUR SIN ON HIM BY FAITH. THANK HIM FOR SAVING YOU. ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO COME AND MAKE YOU BORN AGAIN BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE HE IS GOD AND ROSE AGAIN AND TO FORGIVE YOUR SIN BY PLACING, BY FAITH YOUR SIN ON CHRIST. BE A DISCIPLE OF THE WORD OF GOD BY PLACING YOUR FAITH IN HIS WORD TO CHANGE YOU NOT RULES AND LAWS FROM ANOTHER NATION. BEG GOD TO SAVE YOU.
If you ever get a chance, try to study ancient near eastern covenant-making. It might help you understand the biblical language, and the overall meaning of what both Jesus and the apostle John mean when referring to loving God by keeping His commandments. THESE ARE THE MINTUAE TRAILS TORAH KEEPERS GO DOWN. WE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO HANDLE THE WORD OF GOD CORRECTLY TO BECOME DISCIPLES OF HIM. NOT HOW A COVENANT FROM THE NEAR EAST IMPACTS ME. IF ONE LIKES HISTORY GO FOR IT.
Paul also understands these concepts as he quotes Malachi 1:2-3 in Romans 9:13. Paul spends the next couple of chapters describing God’s covenant loyalty (love) for Israel. But again, as James implies, obedience to the law of the Kingdom of God (the royal law or the law of liberty) validates our faith in Jesus. *THIS IS TOTALLY FALSE GOSPEL RIGHT HERE* WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH. RYAN YOU TOTALLY OUTTED YOURSELF. THIS IS WHAT PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT IN GALATIANS BECAUSE THIS DENIGRATES CHRIST’S SACRFICE. HERE IS EPH 2 FOR THE PEOPLE WATCHING THIS. WE ARE SAVED BY OUR BELIEF IN CHRIST (FAITH) PERIOD. WE DO NOT NEED TO PROVE A THING TO OUR GOD.
EPH 2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision ” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands– 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
If one is inventing their own law, or engaging in antinomianism, does Jesus know them? THIS IS, AGAIN, TOTAL DECEPTION. THE TWIST OF SCRIPTURE HERE IS THAT THIS PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE IS NOT REFERRING TO THE LAW, IT IS KNOWING THE LORD. HE WAS TALKING TO JEWISH PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY TRYING TO KEEP THE LAW *BUT DID NOT BELIEVE IN HIM AS A MESSIAH AND AS GOD*. THUS, HE DID NOT KNOW THEM. IN JOHN 3 JESUS SHOWS NICODEMUS HOW TO KNOW HIM AND BE BORN FROM HEAVEN. THEREFORE, CHRIST IS REINFORCING THAT WE ALL NEED TO KNOW HIM BY BEING BORN FROM ABOVE. (ACTUALLY, THE JEWS WERE FORCED TO KEEP THE ORAL LAW OF PHARISEES, WHICH IS NOT THE REAL TORAH BUT THE TORAH KEEPERS ARE DOING THE SAME THING AS PHARISEES BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTUALLY MAKING PEOPLE COME UNDER JUDAISM AND HOW THEY KEEP THE FEASTS AND SABBATH ETC.) THEREFORE, ARE WE BORN AGAIN. DO WE KNOW THE LORD. JEREMIAH 31-
We are known by our fruit. When He says, “depart from Me I never knew you,”. The reason He does not know them is because they are lawless (without Torah / not demonstrating covenant love). (Matt. 7:15-23) This is also Paul’s teaching on spiritual gifts and love in 1 Corinthians 13. SEE ABOVE AS THIS IS NOT A CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURE, SETTING OR DISCOURSE.
Please forgive me for being so long-winded. I just wanted to address some of your concerns substantively. I APPRECIATE YOUR ATTEMPT, BUT YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THE CONCERNS I LAID OUT FOR YOU. In parting, I just want to say that 99% of the HRM/TO folks are not your enemy. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS COMMENT. HOWEVER, THEY ARE ENEMIES OF GOOD TEACHING AND ARE PURPETUATING THE FALSE TEACHING OF THE JUDAIZERS AS YOU HAVE DONE REPEATEDLY OF PUTTING OBEDIENCE ABOVE OUR FAITH IN CHRIST. THIS IS THE FLESH OF MEN AND WHAT THE ENEMY WANTS TO TRAP US INTO. THE WARNING THAT PAUL IS TALKING TO PETER AND BARNABAS WHILE THEY LIVED LIKE THE GENTILES AND FREEDOM IN CHRIST’S LIBERTY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THEY WERE SUCCUMBING TO THE JEWISH LEGALISM. Just as the lukewarm church of today is not the enemy of the HRM/TO movement. HRM IS THE ENEMY OF GOOD DOCTRINE AND SOUND TEACHING. I HAVE YET TO FIND SOMEONE WHO IS IN THIS MOVEMENT THAT IS SOUND IN THEIR PROPER BIBLICAL HERMENEUTICS. THEY KNOW LOTS OF “STUFF” ABOUT JUDAISM BUT LITTLE OF THE PROPER WAY TO STUDY SCRIPTURE. I ALMOST FELL INTO THIS TRAP. The occultist Alice Bailey refers to the “Externalization of the Hierarchy.” THIS LITERALLY MEANS NOTHING IN OUR CONTEXT.
When that occurs, and it soon will, then you will know the enemy. AGAIN GNOSTICISM OF SECRET KNOWLEDGE YOU KNOW OVER CHRISTIANS. SAD. Evil supernaturalism is the enemy Ric…not a bunch of Passover-observing Christians. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS MEANS.
When fallen angels extend themselves into this realm in a tangible way, you will no longer think of Saturday church-goers as a danger. We need to get a little perspective. I pray that the Lord blesses you and your family. THIS IS CALLED A non sequitur AS IT HAS NO BEARING ON WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS FAITH IN CHRIST, NOT WORKS OF LAW AND ONE HAS TO BE BORN AGAIN. THAT SHOULD BE YOUR GOSPEL, NOT SECRET KNOWLEDGE. I HOPE ALL OF YOU WHO READ THIS WILL RUN FROM THIS FALSE PERSPECTIVE OF TEACHING AND WORKS OF THE LAW RATHER THAN FOLLOWING CHRIST. THEY MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THEY ARE FOLLOWING CHRIST BUT ARE FOLLOWING MOSES AND THE TORAH AND ACTUALLY ARE FOLLOWING JUDAISM. FOLLOW CHRIST!
RYAN YOU ARE NOT MY ENEMY. BUT HRM IS THE ENEMY OF THE GOSPEL.
Ryan
The last two posts have been a bit lengthy. So for those who skipped over them or got lost along the way, let me summarize.
Ryan’s argument #1: Jesus died and rose from the grave, having restored the Abrahamic Covenant. That meant that all, both Jew and Gentile, could be saved by grace through faith…just like Abraham who was justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Ryan’s argument #2: After having been justified by faith, if some Jesus followers want to: go to church on Saturday; have a Passover seder with their church or fellowship; abstain from eating pigs; or sing Paul Wilbur songs, it’s ok. If this is you…you are not a heretic.
Ric’s argument #1: If you are trying to follow some of the precepts found in the Torah, you are a heretic. Because Torah-following is heretical.
Ric’s argument #2: I’m a PH.D. candidate and I know Baruch Norman, therefore I am smarter than everyone else. If you are not at least a PH.D. candidate, and if you do not know Baruch Korman, you can not possibly be hermeneutically sound.
Ric’s argument #3: I had a bad experience at a Messianic Jewish synagogue. Therefore everyone that studies the Torah, and attempts to apply some of its principles, is a heretic.
Ric’s argument #4: If you try to keep any of the 613 commands in the Torah you are under the law and are therefore a heretic; however, if you try to keep the 1642 New Testament laws, you are not under the law. Ric is trying to free everyone from the bondage of the law by tacking on an additional 1000.
Unfortunately the most persuasive argument made by Ric was his usage of all caps throughout his comments. Ric has shown himself to be a modern-day Don Quixote fighting windmills that he perceives to be giants. In an act of academic hubris, Ric fights everyone who threatens his Dulcinea (his preferred theology).
Do not worry Ric, I remember about 30 years ago, while I was in law school, I too thought I knew it all. Men with knowledge and no wisdom are often proud. Continue to pursue your education, it will no doubt help you earn a decent wage; but get wisdom along the way, as it will keep you from stepping on the throats of those that Jesus died to save.
Ric Joyner
A correction: WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE TORAH. We do not need to follow the Torah because Jer 31 says we have the HS within us. We are to love God with our whole hearts and we do not need to prove anything to anyone or even ourselves by “doing torah”. We need to show Christ we love Him by having faith in His word.
Anonymous
Ric, 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
Ric Joyner
Ryan, there will not be a defense because you exposed your false Gospel of wanting to keep Torah to prove obedience. What I am surprised about is how nasty you are in your post. I asked you to please stop your passive aggressive digs but to no avail. That is on you.
I shared my story in good faith with you so you could understand where I was coming from. But you were passive aggressive and accused of a logical fallacy of appeal to authority. That again is false from you. I am not an authority and thus my appeal would be to myself however I did train attorneys in understanding employee benefits tax law application. My second career is learning proper biblical study methods because we are in the age of deception. I lived in false doctrine of being taught in pulpits (charismatic, Pentecostal, torah observance, Hrm) and want to know how to handle the word of God correctly (as an attorney you should want that too) I get tired of talking to people who just believe Torah Keeper teachers without digging into what is behind their biblical doctrines. You on the other hand are different. Well explained, well reasoning, honest which are a good thing and with historical background but biased as I pointed out. I think we are wasting each others time going forward. Ps I have seen very bad attorneys and very good ones. I am a fan of the law and proper application. I appreciate attorneys. They are the ultimate risk managers. I considered being an attorney but If I did, I would not be able to advise my clients on a certain course of action after getting the scope of risks. My business partner was an attorney. But I could advise on a particular course of action as a consultant.
I wish you well and hope you get out of this works based salvation. We can please God by being faithful to all of the Scripture by having faith in Christ. The Gospel is laid out by Paul from Christ in acts 26:18. I hope that is preached in your camp.
Anonymous
I think Ric is misunderstood and Ric misunderstands. When Ric says Torah Keeping, I think he means observing Torah the wrong way with other Jewish customs. I think Ric agrees we can observe Torah the right way. Ric agrees we should do ALL 613 AND 1642.
Ric Joyner
Cute. 😊
Denny Stewart
Matthew 7:15-20 ESV
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. …
1 John 4:1 ESV
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Please read the negative impacts on the families and codependents of the people that are addicted to false religion. These would be considered proof of bad fruit.
A great way to test a religion or belief is to simply read the gospel, does it align with the gospel of Jesus?? twisting scripture, taking scripture out of context and taking scripture out of date, when it was written, standing scriptures on their head, and then dancing around them, is all proof of a false belief, religion ,cult. The more stubborn you are to admit this, the more angry you get to admit this is a gauge of how much pride you have . PRIDE is Satans signature 100%. Reminds you of the Pharisees that ordered the brutal, torturing killing of Jesus. I would think pride is the basis of all false religions, and even the word -religion. It would be false ,prideful, counterfeit, tainted with man’s works to change or improve Gods Grace -what was done on the cross. It would be like stitching up the torn veil to separate us from God again.. you might as well re-write the Bible, God, so loved the world that he gave his law to be followed forever and ever. Your salvation is through works and laws which we as men consider Holy and Jesus was crucified for nothing or not at all .That one sounds Mormon. Maybe you guys should right your own Bible, the flat earthers will enjoy it. If you really want to do some soul-searching read up on all these crazy cults,Lds,jw,sda, Scientology, flat earth and the millions of members. It will explain to you why our country is in the condition. It is .Maybe a good look in the mirror will unbind your blindness towards false religion. I’ve studied the Cults and the evil power that comes from twisted Bible based false teachings-religion. Being stuck in a rut of the wrong dispensation 1-7 is the basis of this false religion. People will chime in with old testament verses, saying how important the law is, the Torah, the tabernacle’s and the feast. I know about these too. I believe this month is the feast of the trumpets, many scholars say Jesus will come back during this feast. Please meditate-feel These letters in red, words from the mouth of Jesus-God as you read them.
Mark 13:32 ESV
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Matthew 23:15
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
Brothers if you can misinterpret those verses into you (should follow the law, the diet, the tabernacle beliefs) there is no hope for you, God has left the building.
You must remember, the religious leaders didn’t believe in Jesus-Gods living son. When Jesus came, it changed everything . It opened the door to Grace. The 6th dispensation overrides the first 5 to take us into the 7th -Kingdom man. Hallelujah Jesus is coming back in the seventh dispensation. He’s not gonna ask you how you’ve observed his laws, diet and tabernacle, beliefs, and dates, he’s going to ask you what did you do with the life and all the money I gave you?? How much did you give to help bring people to me? What did you do with all the time I gave you?? Did you witness to people about the way to heaven thru my holy sacrifice ? Did you serve my father as a faithful and obedient servant like I did?? Did you tell them what I told you through the gospel that there’s only one way to heaven and that’s through me Jesus ???? confess your sins to Jesus-God, believe in Jesus-God surrender to Jesus-God and follow Jesus-God daily that’s what gets you to heaven .You don’t want to respond, saying no ,I kept the holy law and pounded my chest as I yelled it to everyone. And I hood winked people out of your gospel of salvation thru grace by your sacrificial love, and obedience of the father. I know the Hebrew law is much more important because I’m smarter than you and have a degree that proves I’m a Hebrew Rabbi. We prefer the Old Testament because it makes us feel more Holy than this far to simple grace ,salvation
Just believe and witness thing.
Well there it is (pride)!!!!! that’s why Grace is so simple there’s no room for pride!!!! if you try building on it, you’re being prideful. This is the most common evil fault in all false religion and cults.
Your soul is your most precious asset!!!! that’s why Satan wants it so bad!!!!
Surrendering your life to Jesus Christ, becoming eternal through his salvation and grace and obedience will alone keep you in check with what God wants us to do. And the retirement plan is so awesome spending eternity with Jesus and all of our loved ones that we miss in Gods heaven ,not the planet of Kolob like the so lost mormon prosperity gospel says .
Could you imagine walking into somebody’s hospital room when they’re on their deathbed and preaching a bunch of laws ,tabernacle diets, and Hebrew calendar dates ????
Could you imagine America being all conscientious objectors like many false, religion and cults believe?? This one nation under God would’ve never been born. The Nazis would have took over the world or maybe Japan. This one fact, implodes all false religions and cults that say -thou shall not kill. This is why liberals are drawn to Cults and false religion. There are evil people that commit super evil crimes that deserve the death penalty. there are times when evil tries to take over the world and you have to justifiably eliminate them as David eliminated Goliath. As The U.S eliminated Hitler !!! Saying that Saturday is the truth Sabbath, because the 4th commandment says-remember the Sabbath is a parallel with taking the commandment thou Shall not kill out of context. Foolish ,very foolish. And to teach these Practices is heretical teaching, out of context type false doctrine and blasphemy is an abomination to God, there’s some law for you.
Brain washed even generational brainwashing, addiction, even generational addiction to pride thru cult like beliefs and false religion beliefs makes it almost impossible to save any of these lost souls!!!! Satans grip runs very deep in the false churches.
My love of Jesus, compels me to keep studying and trying to save these types, I have some friends I love dearly that are wrapped up and some SDA false teachings.
Soul sleeping is completely false and a evil heretical teaching of a false prophet, Ellen G white. It steals the power of the grace Jesus gave us the power to testify the power of the Holy Spirit inside of us if you’re truly saved. The instant you die, you’ll be with Jesus if you’re truly born again,. Their mandatory Saturday, Sabbath separates them from the true church and the free time we have together. Their special diet doesn’t affect me, but robes them of the freedom of salvation, the victory ,the liberty ,the power of Grace. is they can only interpret the Bible through Ellen G whites false doctrine. Sure they have evolved a lot from their deep cult roots, but practice liberal life styles,and do not serve our country. They don’t believe in all the God intervention victories and battle that built this country, but build their false churches on our land Of course they brag about how their religion lives 10 years longer than the average person because of their special diet and special beliefs . If two people worship the devil and one eats healthy ,exercises regularly doesn’t smoke or drink he will outlive the other devil worshiper by 10 years probably. That wouldn’t make the devil worshiper holy , it tells me he fears death . Perhaps the false belief in soul sleeping has something to do with their health practices . The fact that attending other churches is frowned Upon in your false religions is a giant red flag.
Satan wants this country destroyed as bad as he wants your soul,so he wants you ignorant of the holy spirt strength of the gospel !!!
Please stay true to Jesus,that is staying true to God. Love ,Peace and wisdom be with you, shalom, shalom,Denny
Ric Joyner
WOW. Sorry but this is no apology. The arrogance is appalling. We do not treat you this way. An apology is explaining what you did wrong not saying “If we are offended”. That puts the blame on us vs you. Cognitive dissonance is not in any of the discussions because we are not answering the way you like. I find the site you refer to full of legalistic propaganda to keep the Torah and twisting scripture. There are fundamental and lack of understanding of biblical study methods in that site. I do not care how many years they have put their stuff up. 119 ministries is also teaching falsely.
Here is your comment: “I’m not in a superior position. We all have to be careful of cognitive dissonance. Your responses have signs of it.” First, this is a passive aggressive dig that has no place in this conversation. Denny pointed out some very strong evidence biblically of the Torah Keeping misunderstanding of scripture. This is not cognitive dissonance and that has no place except in arrogance here. When people do this they are typically projecting. Meaning that the shoe is really on their foot to point out the other persons lack (from your perspective) rather than debate what was said. So the shoe is on your foot. And pls keep the psych babble out of this and try not to be psychology counselor.
You said: “Denny and Ric are missing some understanding.” Based on you? Then show us. Pls don’t show us Torah Keeping talking points. But so far all you have done is tell us from your perspective how we are wrong but don’t share any details. Denny did a great job of showing you details. And actually I covered the issues of Torah Keeping succinctly. Also your comment on the 1,000 year reign presumes gentile believers will be subject to Jewish rulership. Again perhaps you may want to look into the various discussion on whether this is true or not. It is best to keep the church which is the bride of Christ and under the Royal Law and not under Torah. Another suggestion is make sure you know your opponent. And yes we are opponents.
The site is basic with the theme of keeping Torah and doing the feasts. Why didn’t you mentioned that Torah Keepers actually do practice Judaism? And why not address the things I said about their faulty teaching. And their hatred (yes hatred) of the church. On this site you can see this in full glory of people and their acceptance of false teaching. They accuse and accuse in sweeping generalizations. The church is a mess because people are in it and people do not use proper biblical study methods. We are all Christians according to the HS in Acts. Even TKs. Especially in Torah Keeping groups they are a mess which I did address. Did you read the article? These people are trying to be better Jews than Jews.
You said, “If you think the site is 101, most of your points have been 101.” This is an immature almost high school like comment. Sad. You said: “You missed a lot if you just skimmed the site. If you think their response is poor Biblical study methods, I look forward to your response to their responses.” You can ask what we did with the site but you cannot presume. Presumption and accusations are the standard discussion comments from you and that is why I did not engage you for the longest time.
Here is an example of the Torah bent of this website:
Contrary to popular belief, there is not a single line of
scripture to support the abolishment or taking away of
Yahweh’s law in the “Old Testament.” In fact, we have
found that new testament scriptures support the keeping of His law. The Messiah even warned us:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For
assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass
away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from
the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks
one of the least of these commandments, and teaches
men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19
We have learned that fulfil means to “do”, not abolish
or destroy. For instance, if we asked someone to bring
us a glass of water and they did it, then they “fulfilled”
what we asked them to do. “Fulfill” does not mean
“abolish” or “destroy”. In fact, that would be a contradiction of what He just said (“Think not I am come to
destroy the law”). Rather, we are told that whoever
does and teaches “these commandments” within the
law will “be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.
There is so much that is wrong biblically with his comment and to start this is eisegesis. Meaning he is putting into the text what He believes. https://eliyah.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/whatwebelieve.pdf
The old testament was pointing to Christ. The old testament saints were saved by believing in His coming. This is a twisting of what Christ meant because the goal is to be under legalism. His paragraph on “do” is amazing. Why? Christ did not need to abolish the law. He came to fulfill as I said in many other posts. He taught us how to look at scripture and it was not about do. It was about allowing it to reveal sin. No one can keep or do the law. We need the Holy Spirt. Jer 31:31. Christ did not need to abolish anything but to fulfill. He came as the prophets foretold. Therefore fulfilled. He died for our sin debt. Fulfilled. He gave us new commandments as He did through Moses because He was going to let gentiles into the fold. He told us what His agenda is here: Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
And a new priesthood. His blood covers us-Grace. We have His power within us to walk worthy of His calling by faith. Torah Keeper and Jewish people make a mistake.
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
Faith is putting our whole weight and trust in all of God’s word. There is no do here. So Tom’s statement is biblically in error. Since we don’t know his credentials for all we know on his site is he is “just a guy” and says this: “It’s about serving others and proclaiming the need to keep the commandments of Yahweh AND the faith of Yahushua the Messiah.” His biblical approach is not mentioned. But his approach is keeping the commandments and therefore practices Judaism. That is TKs only model as shown in the other article that was not mentioned.
Another weird comment of his. wearing tassels according to Numb. 15:38-40. Again legalism focused on Torah. Most of his scripture is OT. Christ gave us 1642 Greek imperatives. We can focus on them. Except make sure it reveals motives of sin not doing. Doing is a false doctrine of works to keep your salvation. He is the author and finisher of our Faith. (Which is Him).
Let Christ be magnified not Judaism. We can learn much from the cultural perspective of why they focused on works. Similar to TKs. Not all of course. But one of the great twists of scripture is “we love Jesus and want to keep Torah to show we love Him”. But He doesn’t call us to do that. Therefore it is a false Gospel.
Show me one place where Christ said to keep the Torah of Moses and wear tassels and Tom said in that flyer. Be honest pls.
Anyway I wish you well.
Anonymous
You’re interpreting my words in the worst way possible. Others may see you as projecting yourself on me. Your words could be interpreted as doing everything you’re blaming me for. Honestly, the way you write can be taken arrogantly at first. I reread your words and take them positively. Pointing fingers is a waste of energy, so let’s just agree to take each others words positively.
Ric, did you ever hear people blame all Christians for bad fruit of some believers? You wouldn’t say Catholic priests molesting children is considered proof of bad fruit and then apply it to all Christians.
You’re focused on the negative outcomes of some people in TO/HRM. All the negative you point out and breaking up of families should be condemned by TO/HRM.
If you want to see fruit, see what Eliyah ministries does in the real world. Then, you may say, “feeding the poor doesn’t mean your doctrine is right.” The point is that if you’re going to point out bad fruit, then point out the good.
I don’t know what you mean by “they practice Judaism.” From your previous comments, I think you’re saying they light candles and follow Talmudic traditions. You would be mistaken because they don’t do it because it’s not in scripture to do it. They don’t teach you to eat eggs on Passover.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Some TO/HRM may slip in to extremes of Jewish customs, but there are TO/HRM ministries that don’t. For example, you’re against polygamy that goes on in TO/HRM. Tom from Eliyah ministries is aware some TO practice polygamy, but he teaches against practicing it in countries where it’s not the norm because it’s not love to make others stumble.
For example, Tom is quoting Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of Yahweh, and the faith of Yahushua.”
However, you said:
So Tom’s statement is biblically in error. Since we don’t know his credentials for all we know on his site is he is “just a guy” and says this: “It’s about serving others and proclaiming the need to keep the commandments of Yahweh AND the faith of Yahushua the Messiah.” His biblical approach is not mentioned. But his approach is keeping the commandments and therefore practices Judaism. That is TKs only model as shown in the other article that was not mentioned.
To Revelation 14:12, you may reply that the commandments don’t include Torah. People usually respond with a high level overview of their position instead of responding to the verse and going step by step.
I understand your position, so you don’t have repeat it again. I’m interested in the details.
Tom quoted Matthew 5:17-19, “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
People reply that doesn’t mean Torah and their reason is, again, a high level overview of their position and they may say look at Romans and Galatians. These are 101 responses.
Let’s look at Romans and Galatians and go deeper than 101. Tom has replies to Galatians verse by verse. He gives details and goes step by step. Search Galatians on his site.
I’m looking for responses to his detailed reasoning step by step in an orderly fashion.
Even better, I hope one day you call in during his live sabbath broadcast during the Q&A portion. He’s open to replying to objections. I hope we can take three years if we have to, so we can answer all objections we have for each other.
—-
For now, I have a quick response to what I think your main point is.
You said, “But one of the great twists of scripture is “we love Jesus and want to keep Torah to show we love Him”. But He doesn’t call us to do that. Therefore it is a false Gospel.
Show me one place where Christ said to keep the Torah of Moses and wear tassels and Tom said in that flyer. Be honest pls.”
My responses is what do you say to all the red letters in that flyer?
“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19
“For not the hearers of the Law are just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified” (Romans 2:12)
“Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the
Law.” (Romans 3:31)
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.” (KJV, Jer. 31:31, Hebrews 8:8)
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of Yahweh, and the faith of Yahushua.
Ric Joyner
This is my point. Rarely do you deal with the issues of theology and doctrine in your posts back. Or debate our questions and challenges biblically. Discouraging. He is is wearing tzit tzit and following following Jewish practices and encouraging others. Legalism. So lets move on. But as stated I do not appreciate your passive aggressive digs and attempting to demean people that don’t agree with you. You are clearly projecting.
Doing good for the community does not in any way correlate to proper doctrine and theology. In fact, we can all agree that this may give “cover” for their poor biblical study methods and conclusions.
From this point if you want to meet to discuss let me know. As it stands just reading eliyah’s “what we believe” means all believers should run. For wjatever reason youbare defending this guy doesn’t matter to me. We need to defend Christ our Redeemer and serve Him single heartedly not mic hebrew roots and Judaism together which is being done. His credentials for teaching this stuff are not shown. “Just a guy” doesn’t work. This is about following Christ as He commanded and His disciples.
Anonymous
By bringing Tom to your attention, I’m giving you examples of TO/HRM that you were unaware of. You’ve been focusing on the negative, so I balance it with positive.
Every time you’re challenged with Scripture, if you respond with a high level overview of your position, no one wants to respond to you because it’s smothering. It’s unfocused. It’s unorderly.
Eliyah’s “what we believe” is his high level overview of his position. Saying believers should run is prejudice. He has his reasons in detail step by step in other articles. He goes over every point you made in detail. He doesn’t care about his own credentials. It’s all about scripture.
The challenge here is although you both have years of experience in debating TO/HRM, you may may not have heard all the responses from each other, so dig deeper into his articles. Two sides need to hash it out until the end and see why we aren’t united.
You probably responded to those verses before, but they get lost in all the noise. Do you have a website or want help creating one to get all your responses in order? Either that or can you make one post for each response?
Ric Joyner
Regarding your proof texts about keeping the law I already dealt with all of that. Those are verses typically used by Torah Keepers for their talking points. None of my Scriptures about a new covenant and Mt Transfiguration are used or new priesthood. The Gospel of Torah Keepers is clear obey Torah. James 2:10 is clear.
Anonymous
Search James 2:10 on Eliyah’s site. “Does the Law of Messiah abolish the Law of Moses? – Part 2” and “Response to Common Objections about the Law – Part 1”
Here’s a partial quote, but you should read or watch the whole video. I’d like to hear your response to his response.
—-
He is assuming our goal is to fulfill that Law. As Messiah fulfilled the Law, we are supposed to fulfill the Law as well. It is our goal. And so, he is showing us we are failing to meet that goal if we are showing partiality.
For if we keep the entire Law except that one commandment that tells us not to show partiality, we are guilty of all because we are not fulfilling the Law of Yahweh as He desires us to.
In other words, do not take confidence in the idea that you are really loving your neighbor if you are ignoring the commandment in the Law which says do not show partiality.
Leviticus 19:15 – `You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor.
That is what the Law teaches. We are failing to fulfill this expression of love in the Law of Yahweh by showing partiality. And so, James is not discouraging anybody from trying to keep the Law.
He is simply pointing out that in our efforts to keep Yahweh’s Law we cannot ignore what the Law says when it speaks against being partial to the rich or to the poor. Whether you are rich or poor has nothing to do with anything.
So if you show partiality, you commit sin. It is a transgression of the Law to show partiality, and therefore, you are convicted by the Law as transgressors.
James 2:10 – For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is guilty of all.
11 – For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
That is our goal, right? to transgress the Law? NO!! Our goal is to NOT transgress the Law.
And so, he continues his theme. He says, “Look, you are a transgressor if you choose to murder.” The same King who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” We would be failing to keep that royal law, failing to love your neighbor as yourself, failing to keep either of those two commandments– love Yahweh or love your neighbor.
So, again, James is affirming that our goal should be to avoid being a transgressor of the Law. He is not saying, “Oh, do not bother keeping that Law. It is impossible.” He is not saying that at all.
He is not saying, “Oh, do not worry about committing murder. Look, you cannot keep that Law anyway. It is impossible.” But that is the way it is presented to me a lot of times. And that is not Biblical. That is not what he is saying at all.
Anonymous
Here’s the context of James 2:10 from Eliyah’s article. I really recommend reading the whole thing instead of responding to only what I copy/paste here.
—
And so, he goes on to say:
James 2:8 – If you really fulfill [the] royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well;
9 – but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
How are they showing partiality? How are they failing to love their neighbor as themselves? By dishonoring the poor man, by having evil thoughts, right? So James is telling us we are not really loving our neighbor as ourselves if we are showing partiality. We are failing to fulfill this royal law, as if that is our goal to fulfill that law.
That is our goal, to love, right? And so, James is telling us it is a bad thing to show partiality. Therefore, it must logically also be a bad thing if we are failing to fulfill this royal law.
His point is not, “Oh, why try?” His point is, “Hey, we are trying to fulfill this royal law, here. But if you are showing partiality, then you are not doing it. Because even if you keep the rest of the Law, if you stumble in that one point, you are guilty of everything. You are still a transgressor.”
Anonymous
Ric, where’s your reply? Let’s stay focused.
Ric Joyner
Here is my “stay focused”.
What is faith? Why did the Jews have such major problems with Christ? They had two kinds of law. The Law (TORAH, Instruction, Commandments) in the first five books of the Bible. Is faith being obedient to God’s law? Does not appear so. Adam and Eve were made sinners not because they disobeyed God’s clear instructions but because they did NOT believe God’s explicit instructions. Satan leveraged this and deceived Eve but Adam willfully sinned. This is why the Seed to come did not come through men (males) but through women.
They were sinless and perfect. They had fellowship with God. Therefore only God could fix this because He is the only being sinless that can take on all human sin. (John 3) So in effect, Christ came to fix the problem by DOING GOD’s WILL which Adam should have done and was made to do. We are to learn how to do God’s will too which is in His word. Christ was the same God on Mt Sinai as on Mt Beatitudes. In fact, Exodus 20 and Matthew 5 appear to be parallels! Except when we get the law we need to let it do its work and uncover sin motives. Those are the things that will cause us to doubt God’s words.
When we get saved do we repent of our sins? Some do. If so, how many sins do we repent from? Are we not cleaning ourselves up before becoming saved? Is this is a work of sorts? Or do we drop to our faces in seeing that a Holy God came in human form and gave up His spirit and died on a terrible cross so that His perfect blood could redeem mankind? Acts 26:18 shows a remarkable scripture of the Lord’s agenda for us Gentiles who had no hope but to join Judaism. We no longer need to join Judaism both Jew and Gentile.
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Notice the inheritance is for those sanctified by faith in Me! This is wonderful news. The Gospel. It is by FAITH. Not works. Then Christ gave us the Holy Spirit, which puts the law into us. See Jer 31:31 Yep in us. So we are born again from above. And He did all this when you were totally dead in your trespasses. Eph 2:1-FF Nothing you can do will get Him to save you except believe in Him and place your sin on Him BY FAITH. He takes our sin and exchanges His blood (Grace) and now we are SAVED to eternal life, and His perfection is credited to us until we get our new sinless bodies. Now this is love! Everyone can be saved by begging Him to save us and placing our sins on Him by faith. If you have not done so do it now.
But what happens after you get saved? Paul says we learn to walk by the Spirit, not the flesh. Clue. The flesh is at war with the Spirit. Gal 5:17 and Romans. So, one way the Lord trains us is by having faith in His word to live Holy lives through tough times. Deut 8. We need to see what is in us through stress, and then we can compare our actions against the word of God.
But another thing will happen. Satan will attack. He attacked the perfect humans to deceive them. How does he attack? Through subtle manipulations. That we need “to perform for God, we need to question God.” We can get angry at God, we can question God and His word etc. Learn how to study the Bible properly. One way satan will use others to steer us away from Christ is through groups and false teaching (twisting) that lead us to keep another country’s laws not meant for us. Can we learn spiritual lessons from the entire Bible…yes. Do we need to do these laws and regulations? No. We are called to follow Christ. I fell for it because my understanding of faith was messed up. I was thinking it was obedience to the Bible. That is how Adam and Eve fell. Right? No. They failed to have faith in God and His words. Their disbelief is what caused their action of disobedience. Remember, Christ said it is not what goes into a man but what comes out.
Whatever is not of faith is a sin. Disobedience is not here. That is a result of a lack of belief and trust in God. We see many Gentiles in the Gospels come to Christ for help, and they have the most faith. The woman from Tyre and the Centurian etc. The Jews had little. Why? Could it be their teachers of the law? Christ made a stunning comment to the Jews: Listen to what the Pharisees say when sitting in the seat of Moses (the actual word of God) and forget what they say in their lives (oral manmade Torah).
But what happens? Our flesh goes after the “to-dos”. Paul had a lot to say about the problem of the Jews and they wanted him dead because he taught a true gospel of faith in Christ alone. No works.
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
The people who pursue the law and preach that we love Jesus and keep the Torah are actually doing the above. They will need to ask the Lord for help. But I have seen remarkable changes in my own life to honor God and have His help when I stopped performing and had faith in His word which is His will.
May the Lord be with you all in this struggle that Prof Solberg is laying out.
Anonymous
Ric, here’s my “stay focused” by staying on the topic of Romans 14:23.
I gave you many other verses and didn’t receive replies to them.
This is how Tom replies to one verse. Can you do the same?
—
And he goes on to say: “However, if you do not have that faith, then for you it would be a sin to partake of pork, for Romans 14:23, ‘He that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.’”
So, in other words, because he has great faith, he can break the Law, but because I don’t have the faith, I feel I must keep the Law. Now isn’t that backwards from what we just read? We do not make void the Law through faith. We establish it. And he uses Romans 14:23.
And so, my reply to him was: “Well, Peter is not weak in faith, obviously. ‘In the name of Yahushua, rise up and walk,’ he would say. And yet, he still had not eaten anything common or unclean in Acts chapter 10, maybe ten years or more after Messiah was resurrected.
“And so, was Peter, the main leader at that time, unaware that this was all nailed to the cross? And was he a man that was considered to be weak in the faith because he would not eat things common or unclean?” He was not weak in faith and the Law of Yahweh was not nailed to the cross.
See, Romans chapter 14, the issue there was that the Jews considered anything that was offered to an idol as being unclean. The Jewish Talmud teaches that. But the Law of Yahweh never taught that.
Now I do have a study on Romans 14. Once again: [link removed. Search Eliyah Ministry for Romans 14]. And if you examine this study, you will find that the Law of Yahweh never taught food itself offered to an idol automatically rendered that food unclean.
In Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians chapter 8, Paul was pointing out that whether we eat meat sold in the market is a matter of faith regarding to the person.
In both texts he addresses those who are weak in faith, and the ones weak in faith should not be partaking of any meats because the meats that were offered to idols would have been sold in the marketplace and they were mindful of the idol when they ate it.
Just like it says here in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, verse 4:
1Corinthians 8:4 – Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] no other Elohim but one.
5 – For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 – yet for us [there is] one Elohim, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Master Yahushua Messiah, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live].
And so, he is saying in this that…
1Corinthians 8:7 – However, [there is] not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat [it] as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
There is not in everyone that knowledge that there is one Elohim. They have a weakness in their faith.
1Corinthians 8:8 – But food does not commend us to Elohim; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9 – But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.
Those who are weak do not have that knowledge that an idol is nothing. And that is the same thing Romans 14 is talking about. If you compare them side by side, it becomes very clear. It is talking about the food offered to idols. It is not about eating pork.
That is why Paul says in Romans 14:
Romans 14:1 – Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 – For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables.
3 – Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for Elohim has received him.
So those who are strong in faith would know an idol is nothing and would not even think of the idol when eating various meats sold in the marketplace. Those who are weak in faith couldn’t help but to think of the idol.
And so, those who were stronger in faith were instructed to not partake of the meats around them if it is going to cause the weaker brother to stumble because then they are no longer walking in love. And so, both 1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14 are speaking of the same thing.
Ric Joyner
Here is my main contention. The Torah Keepers are tedious in their eisegesis (putting into the text) what they want to see which is “keep the Mosiac law” blah blah blah. James is not saying anything of what you are alleging he is saying. He is saying one who puts themselves under the law (as if they can outside of Israel) in one thing has to do it for all. Torah Keepers are notorious for keeping just the laws they want to. Are they going up to Jerusalem 3 times per year? Are they living under their own version of keeping the sabbath? Are they denigrating Christians for worshiping on Sundays. All of this is yes. Do they mix and match their clothes? Yep. Torah Keepers read over this part and then this is whole thing you posted is so convoluted and illogical interpretation of Scripture that it defies rational. However if someone is so committed to Torah Keeping this makes sense but could this mean a person is deceived. Yes. Here is another comment you made:
“So, again, James is affirming that our goal should be to avoid being a transgressor of the Law. He is not saying, “Oh, do not bother keeping that Law. It is impossible. He is not saying that at all. He is not saying, “Oh, do not worry about committing murder. Look, you cannot keep that Law anyway. It is impossible. That is not what he is saying at all.”
This appears as though you are framing this that the person who said this to you is not biblical. But they are in fact biblical and the way you framed it is unbiblical. Again I already went over why we cannot keep Torah. Why Christ said He fulfilled the law (all of it) by paying our sin debt and fulfilled the prophets by coming. Not to keep the law anymore because He put the Holy Spirit in us Jer 31:31 and fulfilled in John 3. He puts Himself in us. We are the tabernacle of God. We move forward under His power not going after the minutiae of Judaism practices. So the person saying this to you is correct but because it does not match your the improper biblical study methods and worldview of keeping Torah is incorrect. So who is prejudiced and biased? But a person in TK will immediately say what you do and that is “you are saying not to keep the law you lawbreaker”. False accusation.
But that is the way it is presented to me a lot of times. And that is not Biblical. This is a straw man logical fallacy.
Actually someone who is born again knows that Matthew 5-7 Our Lord is showing the proper interpretation of scripture which is to reveal sin motive. Not keep feasts or days or weeks as Paul says. We need the faith of Abraham a gentile. Not the faith of pharisees. Rom 9:30
Those of us who love the word of God, want to live praiseworthy to God’s will are saying to submit to the word of God to do His will. The exact opposite of what TKs say we are saying.
Let’s get real. The worldview of Torah Keepers for the most part is be Jewish in their practices, to push a false Gospel out that says we all must keep Torah and Jesus supposedly said so and that we are to follow Moses. And frankly people can do this if they wish. Rom 14 and Col 2. But when they push others to leave Christianity and they preach to live under Torah that is legalism of the pharisees. But then some Torah Keepers are proud of that. (shrug). Anyway, polygamy is real (having spiritual wives aka affairs), false teaching is real, breaking up of families is real, living like Jewish people is real. Sacrificing of animals is real which is blasphemy of Christ. But then so is the book of Galatians. I will let you have the last word.
Anonymous
Ric, you gave me a high level overview of your position to defend your position of James 2:10. That borders circular reasoning.
You said:
“The Torah Keepers are tedious in their eisegesis (putting into the text) what they want to see which is “keep the Mosiac law” blah blah blah.”
And then you put also into the text what you want to see:
“James is not saying anything of what you are alleging he is saying. He is saying one who puts themselves under the law (as if they can outside of Israel) in one thing has to do it for all. “
Let’s just focus on James 2:10. Maybe you didn’t understand what Tom wrote.
—-
I could give you responses to your other questions, after we finish James 2:10, but when you start asking questions like this, it seems like you can’t defend your position.
“Are they going up to Jerusalem 3 times per year? Are they living under their own version of keeping the sabbath? Are they denigrating Christians for worshiping on Sundays. All of this is yes. Do they mix and match their clothes? Yep.”
—
You said:
Torah Keepers read over this part and then this is whole thing you posted is so convoluted and illogical interpretation of Scripture that it defies rational.”
—-
Can you start with telling me what Tom’s interpretation is and then explain what was illogical and convoluted with the interpretation?
Anonymous
Ric, call in today around 3pm ET.
The broadcast starts at Noon ET, study portion at 1pm ET followed by Q & A, and prayer. You can tune in to the broadcast at his site or on YouTube Eliyah ministries. After study portion, there’s about 30 minutes of songs, then Q&A.
Anonymous
I’ll post more of the context of James 2:10 here. This was from Tom’s website. Do you agree the context is partiality?
—-
James is talking to the brothers. He is saying:
James 2:1 – My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Master Yahushua Messiah, [the Master] of glory, with partiality.
Do not hold this faith of Messiah with partiality.
James 2:2 – For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 – and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, You sit here in a good place, and say to the poor man, You stand there, or, Sit here at my footstool,
4 – have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
James 2:5 – Listen, my beloved brethren: Has Elohim not chosen the poor of this world [to be] rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 – But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 – Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
So James is clearly speaking against partiality, right? He is saying, “Do not be partial to the rich and dishonor the poor man. You have evil thoughts.”
And so, he goes on to say:
James 2:8 – If you really fulfill [the] royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well;
9 – but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Fern
We are going through this ourselves. However, it was before becoming more torah observant that we as a husband and wife decided to stop the madness and overspending holiday of Christmas, Easter, and for obvious reasons Halloween. Now before you write me off as a divisive, former Christian who
looks down on those who don’t believe the way I do, please hear me out. I have been on the receiving end of the judgemental spirit of torahism, and it is a awful feeling. I can also see good reasons for observing the sabbath as it is the actual day of rest. For 7 years we have enjoyed resting on the sabbath we actually love taking a day completely off. I would love to study the scriptures with like minded people on the sabbath as well, but our exlperience is that of judgementalism, and divisive attitudes if there is any idea other then reading the 1st 5 books of the bible, and that’s all that is needed. I cannot discount, Ruth, Job, the Psalms, King David, Samson, and not to mention the latter prophets and saints of Jesus. (Yeshua) that is His Jewish name, but I seem to remember prior to me ever knowing His name as Yeshua, He showed up for me all my life as Jesus. I don’t see nothing wrong with not killing, stealing, adultering, and the other commandments as well, but what I do believe is that what was changed was that Jesus became the final sacrifice, we no longer need to sacrifice doves, cows and sheep for our sins. He did it once and for all, and is our High Priest, and advocate with the Father when we sin. The devisiveness has to go in order for us to become the Bride of Christ. We don’t celebrate Christmas anymore not because I choose to rest on the sabbath, but because I found out long before I became a sabbath keeper that the roots of christmas and easter are from pagan orgins. It was long after I decided to forgo those holidays, and enjoy Sukkot in the fall feasts and Hannakah in December, after all I love to give gifts to my children and grandchildren. Anyways I have found God’s holidays are better then our 1 day celebrations. Futher study has convinced me that Yeshua was born in September not December. How would you like to have your birthday celebrated 3 months later? Anyway that being said, I do NOT put anyone down for celebrating Christmas and Easter and I love to watch my family open their gifts as well. I stopped eating pork long before I decided to eat clean, because I studied what pork does to the human body. Also I attend a church on Sunday, because that’s when they have it. Would I attend on Saturday if they would, you bet. Do they serve pork in the pot luck, sure, but I can have extra potatoes, and not make people feel bad about what they choose to eat. The whole situation would resolve itself if people would stop judging each other like modern day Pharisees. If your that concerned about the differences take it to the Father as a matter of prayer, but for goodness sake, be nice to people, have mercy, and grace. We are all learning on a different level here. For 40 some years I put up a Christmas tree, and a manger to celebrate the birth of Jesus, now I do a 7 day celebration called Sukkot in the fall where we camp or get together for 7 days to fellowship, eat and have joy with one another. It’s actually become our favorite holiday. for 40 some years we colored eggs, and filled up easter baskets, now we celebrate unlevened bread for 7 days, and have a Passover lamb for supper. The kiddo’s are involved and enjoy finding the Offy Komen. I feel like I married up in terms of holidays. We traded one day celebrations for week long celebrations. Our Father really knows how to Party. So much more joy, and meaning. That being said, I do not think I am better then any of my brothers and sisters in Christ because of these changes, and I hope we can stop looking down on each other, because of the differences. We have been on the receiving end of judgementalism from Christians due to our choice to change our holidays. Our experience has been that the Christians are just as judgemental, and cruel as the stanch Torrah observant people are. God is not pleased with any of this divisiveness, and I believe He allows it to go on to see how we react to each other on both sides. It is not my hope to pull you over to my side or deepen the divide, but to come together as the body of believers that we are suppose to be joined together as ONE in HIM who died for us all. And for goodness sakes have love above all else concerning these manners. Shalom (Peace)
Anonymous
They are judgmental people in every group. What this blog post doesn’t mention is that judgmental people can see the error of their ways and stop being judgmental. We all know how zealous some new Christians can be. Yahushua gave us a lesson on judging. We have a solution to the judgemental people problem. The solution is not dividing. The solution is not fear mongering by telling us to watch out for the dangers of HRM. The unbelievers say the same about Christians.
Anonymous
Ric, the context of James 2:10 is about showing partiality. If you are partial, you are guilty of the whole law. What is your position?
If we observe Torah, then we are guilty if we are partial.
If we don’t observe Torah, then we are not guilty if we are partial?
Ric Joyner
I will answer in a story. It may not answer your question directly nor is it intended to do so. But your question is well asked due to the supposed conflict of two positions shown.
When I became born again as a 15 yr old coming from an unchurched mindset i knew without a doubt that God was real. He filled the room with His knowledge. I had no concept of God prior to me becoming born from above (john 3). My problem was I wanted to get to know this God. He is in the room! The church handed me good things to do. 1. Come to church 2. Come to youth group 3. Learn to pray. 4. Learn to soul win 5. Read your bible. But I was 15. Then our family was disintegrating and I was able to move out and move in with Christian friends in northern Wi. This was in the height of the charismatic movement wild west show.
Bottom line I picked up a false gospel. What was it? That we needed to perform for God by looking at the word for the things we were to do. This was way long before MJudaism or torah Keeping which was many years away for me to encounter. I was so scared that if I did not perform well, God would punish me. Bad things would happen because of my lack of performance. This was mostly due to a heavy diet sitting in pews of charismatic churches. I blame no one for my perceptions. I saw Adam and Eve of bringing sin to the world by disobeying God’s law. This was Ryan’s theme to my great surprise.
Fast forward to the point that I gave up for many years of trying to follow Christ. I had a lot to learn. But I grew angry at God that had been my friend. Churches came and went and so did people. Charismatic churches were a jumbled mess of doctrines. By around 2013 after repenting for my rebellion I found messianic judaism. Very few of the congregants were Jewish and most were gentiles looking at alternatives for churches and incidentally many of them came from a charismatic backgrounds. But they get gentiles to act Jewish to attract Jews. Many of these people were secret Torah keepers. I met a dear friend at an mjaa southeast conference after hearing him speak on the bible and that we needed to study the bible to learn to be pleasing to God. As I learned this and how to study correctly I decided to go to seminary. In the meantime I decided I needed to know why I believed what i believed after all these years. Christ is my foundation. We need to know why we believe these words. What is faith? What is grace? What is the gospel? What is discipleship? My love for the broken church grew. The people in it need care. They need clear doctrine not more to do.
In learning the Gospel the Lord supernaturally revealed through Scripture that Adam and Eve’s sin was not disobeying God but disbelieving His word. From our actions we can trace back what we believe. We cannot see God, because we were made for this physical world. We can hear the word and faith comes by hearing. Satan saw God and knew He was created and then rebelled. He has no hope because of that. But Eve was deceived but Adam chose to sin. Why? They disbelieved God’s words. Sin entered. Therefore the Seed to come was promised. Romans 9:30 shows this concept of works vs faith for the Jews. Only God is sinless and therefore He had to go to the cross for us. His perfect sacrifice redeemed us by His blood and not only us but Adam and Eve too. We walk under His grace, under His perfect blood with a perfect propitiation or wiping all sin. He demanded perfection from Torah and only He provides that through faith in His work. Not ours. This is even before we are saved! The HS works on us to come to Christ and believe Who He is and that we can place our sin on Him by faith and believe He is the Christ (no works). Then He gives us the HS so we become the temple of God. All of this before we cleaned ourselves up! No more treadmills for me. No more works for me. Any works that come from me are by His leading and then He gets the glory. We are saved by faith. He tests us through circumstances so we can see what is in us. Eph is all about and our calling to be in the image of Christ. I can understand we are saved only by faith. We walk in His power to His glory. This is the misunderstanding. Faith is not obedience. Faith is based on believing His word. Our belief will dictate our actions not the reverse. Titus 2:11-12
The men who are in our mens study who have become born again are so excited to learn proper biblical study techniques vs a list of to dos. I will teach them the feasts and always bring in the Jewish context as that is a bible study tool. But our faith is in Christ. We will Live pleasing to Him and when we fail we will go under His eternal forgiveness purchased by His blood. MJ and HRM was a treadmill for me of performance. No more. We want to be Pleasing to Christ by faith. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Faith is putting our full weight and trust in God’s word. Rom 14:23. The Lord bless you. Acts 26:18. Feel free to pick it apart. But we have had 4 born again experiences and radical changes in our men’s study recently. That is the Gospel. Faith faith faith. People believing in Christ and growing up in the word of God.
Anonymous
Thanks for sharing. Your HRM must be different from my HRM experience. It always seems like the issue is always with the leadership or people in the group. Maybe if we had elders talk every disagreement out with other elders, we would be united. My HRM experience had people accept each other’s differences. No one is better because they follow more. Others may have other sins to overcome that are more important. Repent, believe and you are family.
—
Here are my thoughts and questions.
Disbelieving leads to the action of disobeying.
Abraham had faith and obeyed.
Did Eve disobey because she had faith she would not die?
Obeying Torah and Yahushua takes faith when you have to choose between your job or sabbath. It takes faith to obey commandments when others believe a commandment is trivial.
Did Pharisees add laws to the sabbath for fear of breaking it and dying by stoning? Did they not have faith to heal on sabbath for fear of death?
Does it take faith to disobey Torah and believe only in Yahweh’s righteousness?
—
Here’s something from Tom:
What if someone said to you that unless you are walking in obedience, you do not even know Yahushua at all? What if someone said to you that if you claim to know Him, but do not walk in obedience, you are a liar? Is that focusing too much on obedience? Is that legalism?
1 John 2:3-6 (NKJV) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of Elohim is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Acts 5:32 (NKJV) “And we are His witnesses to these things, and [so] also [is] the Holy Spirit whom Yahweh has given to those who obey Him.”
We know also that sometimes we will fail Him:
1 Joh 1:9- If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 Joh 2:1- My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Yahushua the Messiah the righteous.
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us. What if we come across something in His word that we have not noticed before and realized that we were not walking in obedience? Should our first step not be to stop and pray right at that moment and confess our sin unto Him? I think this is what we should be doing. Even confessing then, is an act of obedience!
Ric Joyner
Thanks but you just showed the same HRM. What is odd is the “yeah but” format of these discussions. I worked it out as my story showed. It is not faith to lose your job for the Sabbath. It is legalistic. We can worship on any day. Sabbath means rest or week. Not worship. Are you making sure there are 3 stars when you end it? Did you have candles and a Seder? Did women light the candles and draw the light to themselves? Do you have oneg afterwards? If so Judaism and not in Scripture. That is the debate I heard and the people would applaud those that lose their jobs to keep sabbath and a Jewish day of rest not required under the law of Christ. Serving Torah is not serving Christ. But if people wish to, go for it Based on your conscience. But pls don’t encourage others (false Gospel) to keep Torah that are types and shadows as that is legalism. But some HRM are proud to be called that. Anyway wish you well. Out for good. Tired of the yeah buts. Focus on Christ. Follow His disciples as the Jews followed Moshe. Look at ex 20 and compare matthew 5. Opens the same!
Ric Joyner
Another thought. Those who wish to follow the Mosaic law or any law are going to be opposed to Faith in Christ alone. Paul discusses this in his epistles. One cannot bring the world to faith if we all are to be under Judaism. We are to be under Christ. The “yeah buts” were always fighting pure faith. And may I ask who, what killed Christ? They even accused Him of not following their version of Torah. Can we as Gentiles be better Jews than the Jews? Isn’t that the goal in Hrm? We love Jesus so we are going to prove our love to Him by keeping His torah outwardly vs inwardly. Torah was to seek out sin.
Anonymous
How can you say I showed the same HRM when you didn’t know what we did? We rest on sabbath and have a holy convocation. We can worship every day.
I never did these in my HRM experience. We don’t follow Talmudic teaching. We go by what’s in the Scripture and whatever HS leads.
“Did you have candles and a Seder? Did women light the candles and draw the light to themselves? Do you have oneg afterwards? If so Judaism and not in Scripture.”
—
It seems you don’t know what happens during the 1,000 year reign. I want to know if you hold your position in spite of what happens or if you lack knowledge of happens.
Can you explain your timeline of events from the return of Yahushua until the time we live in the new heaven and new earth? Do you know there will be sacrifices and feasts? Do you know what is cooked in the four corners of the temple with healing water flowing from it?
Marcus
There was this Roman centurion stationed in East B-F of the empire. He spoke Latin, some Greek, maybe enough Aramaic to get by. He was a tough guy, ate pork, killed a lot of people, had some dirty details to command, like crucifixion, and keeping the peace in a land filled with religious malcontents and fanatics. He was a simple man, a pagan, and sported the symbols of his favorite gods on his armor like sports fans do on game day. This centurion had a servant who was at death’s door. We don’t know why, but he approached Jesus and asked Him in Greek, or Aramaic (not Latin of course… or that other language no one really spoke anymore) …. well, you know what he asked. And Jesus… well, you know what he said. Afterward, Jesus praised this man’s faith (something about Israel or whatever) in front of the many super smart Torah observant people. Later on, the latter decided… well, you know what they decided.
If there was a time to lay down some solid Torahist vibes for the gentiles I think it would have been at that moment. Bet you that centurion is in heaven.
R. L. Solberg
Brilliantly stated, Marcus. Thank you!
Anonymous
Thank you for your work and vision sir.
Ric Joyner
Marcus so well said! It was hsi faith in Christ and Who He was. Somehow God will deepen our faith in Christ when we our our whole faith in Who He is. The torah crowd has to add “yeah but” we need to do thus and so. As you shared so well, the “work of God is to believe in the One Who is sent”. We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ Maker of heaven and earth. We are to be born again by His Spirit! Amen Marcus!!! Woop
Anonymous
“Yeah but” did he keep on killing?
Can you point to these details from Scripture?
“He was a tough guy, ate pork, killed a lot of people, had some dirty details to command, like crucifixion, and keeping the peace in a land filled with religious malcontents and fanatics. He was a simple man, a pagan, and sported the symbols of his favorite gods on his armor like sports fans do on game day.”
Marcus
No A… I am expanding a bit, as you know. The military history of the late Roman republic and early empire is quite thorough and rigorous. I think I might be pretty close to who he might have been. He may have continued in his sinful pagan ways. We are not shown the end of his story. Jesus thought his faith was top-notch Abraham quality however, and that is scriptural. I pray your faith matches his. I pray that for all of the speakers in this discussion. The times are upon us that will require the same faith of this rude, rugged man whom the Messiah noted with such affection.
Anonymous
Did you ask for some Torahist vibes?
“Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.“
Donna
Sounds to me y’all are talking about two different gospels. We have two different High Priesthoods here.
Hebrew 7:12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
One is the Levitical Priesthood, the other is on the order of Melchizedek. The law(Torah, instructions) of the Aaron (Levitical) Priesthood has to be changed if a new order of High Priesthood (Melchizedek) is put in place.
Anonymous
I still haven’t got a reply on the subject of sacrifices and feasts during the 1,000 year reign.
The old covenant is vanishing away, but it’s still here while there is corruptible flesh until the time of reformation.
Donna
What Yeshua decides to do in the 1,000 year reign still remains to be seen. For now we have our commandments (2). And we also have the great commission to finish.
Let me ask you a question..
Was the NEW COVENANT already started? And when did it start if it was.
Ric Joyner
Matthew 26:26-29, see jer 31:31-ff Christians (according to the holy Spirit) is the bride of Christ. His body on earth. There is no Jew or Gentile (Paul in eph). His blood fulfilled our sin debt to God and the prophets were fulfilled as well because He came. Thus fulfilling Matthew 5:17-18. Well done Donna. Others may have opinions. But knowing what faith is critical for all of us.
Anonymous
Ezekiel Zechariah Isaiah these kinds of books paint a very different picture of what the new covenant’s like than what you might hear in traditional theology.
The people on the earth who are alive and living in the flesh will be offering animal sacrifices. Who who are those people? Is that us? Are we going to be offering animal sacrifices to Yahweh when Messiah returns and sets up his reign? Who are these people on the earth?
Let’s read Zechariah 14:1-3.
Anonymous
If you want to know what happens in the 1,000 year reign and during the new covenant after the first resurrection, search for “The Book of Hebrews Teaches Torah (Law) Observance – Part 3” by Eliyah Ministries. It’s on on their site and YouTube.
I’m looking for how your position fits with animal sacrifices and observance of feasts in the 1,000 year reign. If the video is wrong, point them out. Give me some reasons.
JGIG
What priesthood oversaw any and all sacrifices under the Law?
Of what tribe did that priesthood belong?
Who is the Perfect, Permanent High Priest now?
Of what tribe does He belong?
What did Christ do in the Heavenly Temple? (He sat down at the Right Hand of God.)
What could a Levite priest NEVER do? (Sit down in the Temple, because their work was NEVER done.)
Why would our Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the Tribe of Judah illegally (not being a Levite) offer sacrifices under a Law when He Himself was the Once for ALL TIME sacrifice?
The Letter to the Hebrews does not teach Torah observance, it teaches New Covenant superiority – a BETTER Covenant built on BETTER promises, with a Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Who by the power of an indestructible LIFE ever lives to intercede for us.
The Blood has been spilt. The New Covenant has been cut between God the Father and God the Son. We enter into that New Covenant by faith in the finished, complete Work of Christ.
There are many interpretations of The Final Things . . . I trust that God has it well in His Hand and prophecy will be perfectly fulfilled, and like the coming of and the work of Christ, The Final Things will look different than anyone thought!
Ric Joyner
Joyfully Growing in Grace,
Thank you for your post. Your website has been a huge resource for me over the years. Can’t thank you enough. Glad you are here.
JGIG
Thank you, Ric – so glad you’ve found JGIG to be a helpful resource!
Anonymous
What’s your position?
Do you agree according to Scripture there will be feasts and sacrifices in the 1,000 year reign?
JGIG
Dear Anonymous ~
If the interpretation of there being sacrifices in a 1000 year reign is correct, who would be doing them?
Donna
There would be a temple, with a new High Priest, right? Would they be celebrated with the real understanding of them in light of them being totally fulfilled at the end of this age?
Anonymous
JGIG, will you state your position on animal sacrifices and feasts in the 1,000 year reign?
It seems you disagree with the interpretation there will be sacrifices and feasts in the 1,000 year reign.
JGIG
Donna,
What new high priest?
God has sworn by an oath that Jesus is our Perfect, Permanent, High Priest:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. (From Hebrews 7)
And this:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (From 1 Tim. 2)
If there is one mediator between God and men, and that mediator is Christ Jesus, and He is our Perfect, Permanent, High Priest by the power of an indestructible life forever . . .
I’ll ask the question again . . . what new high priest?
JGIG
Anonymous,
You wrote,
“JGIG, will you state your position on animal sacrifices and feasts in the 1,000 year reign? It seems you disagree with the interpretation there will be sacrifices and feasts in the 1,000 year reign.”
I’m questioning the interpretation that there will be sacrifices and feasts (which require sacrifices according to the Law) at any point in the future.
Could there be? Of course – but would they actually be an abomination in light of the Reality of the work and forever position of Christ?
The Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ is a VERY big deal. One cannot just skip over the realities of the New Covenant in Christ!
We have one mediator between God and men . . . Christ Jesus (see 1 Tim. 2:5).
Where do you see room for the shedding of any animal blood for any reason at any point in the future in light of the once for all sacrifice of Christ?
Anonymous
JGIG, I found your blog and your questions on the 1,000 year reign. I’m glad you have responses to further the discussion. I have been looking for responses to HRM on the millennium. I can’t answer all your questions, but I have passed your questions to Eliyah ministries.
“Where do you see room for the shedding of any animal blood for any reason at any point in the future in light of the once for all sacrifice of Christ?”
These are some points I’ve gathered from videos from Eliyah ministries. I hope one day you will call them and discuss this with them during their live broadcast Q&A.
– Old covenant is passing away, but not until death is thrown into the lake of fire. We are ministers of the new covenant, but the law is still here to condemn the world. It is the ministry of death to those who do not believe.
– During 1,000 year reign, we rule and reign other nations. Torah becomes law of the land.
– Animal sacrifices were always symbolic. Could be to for the unbelievers during the millennium.
—
GotQuestions says “In chapter 44, the Lord gives instructions as to who will be offering sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord states that all of the Levites will not be offering blood and fat to the Lord due to previous sin; it will be those from the lineage of Zadok (verse 15). Chapters 45 and 46 continue to mention that animal sacrifices will be made.”
JGIG
Donna wrote,
“During the mk(millennial kingdom) Jesus is the High Priest and will rule the world with a rod of Iron. There will be a Millennial Temple in Jerusalem. But how worship is implemented remains to be seen. I am just wondering how they those that seem to preach a different gospel use the mk as a reason to return to the old covenant under the old High Priest.”
I hear what you’re saying . . . and I’ll admit here that my views on the ‘Final Things’ as far as timeline and events is pretty fluid because there are just SO MANY interpretations out there. Over the years, as I’ve come to a deeper understanding and awe of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ and what that means, I’ve learned to set the many interpretations of the Final Things up on a metaphorical shelf, content in trusting that God has it all worked out perfectly and all will unfold as He wills =o). In reality, our daily walk and calling to love God and love others is not one bit dependent on a correct interpretation of the Final Things.
That future animal sacrifices by believers in a God-ordained Temple and Priesthood is an impossibility, according to Scripture, however. Scripture is VERY clear: Christ was the FINAL once for all sacrifice. Christ is the Perfect, PERMANENT High Priest of the New Covenant. And since there is ONE mediator between God and us, Christ Jesus, it’s pretty clear that there will be no need for either future sacrifices or future priests!
How everything else shakes out beyond that, well, time will tell.
There is this notion in the Hebrew Roots/Torah Pursuant Movement that keeping feasts, days, and dietary laws are practice, or rehearsal, for later when we’ll all be doing those things for real.
But in the light of Christ’s Work and Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, again, there’s no need. I dare say that any future implementation of such practices would actually be an abomination and insult to what God has done in Christ Jesus.
Donna
Amen.
Earlier today I was watching a video on YouTube that I found so inspirational. They were discussing the gospel under Moses. They actually said that the Torah was not a law book. Rather the narrative of Torah was how God laid out his plan to redeem mankind.
Donna
JGIG
Jesus is the New High Priest. I am just saying. In the millennial kingdom the new covenant is still in effect. We can’t keep Torah today with no temple and a new High Priest. With a new High Priest there needs to be a new set of laws.
In this day and age we are not called to follow the old covenant law. But follow the new law which is life in the spirit.
Durning the mk(millennial kingdom) Jesus is the High Priest and will rule the world with a rod of Iron. There will be a Millennial Temple in Jerusalem. But how worship is implemented remains to be seen.
I am just wondering how they those that seem to preach a different gospel use the mk as a reason to return to the old covenant under the old High Priest.
Anonymous
Donna, they believe the same laws are in both covenants. There may be an exception or change to the priesthood laws. (I think there was a law about who can touch the mountain.)
They may say same laws from old covenant are in your heart in the new covenant. The law is in your heart through Yahushua the living word. Yahushua is in your heart.
Donna
My potion is easy. I will follow Jesus. What I am more concerned about is obeying my High Priest now, not in the future. Which Torah are you observing now? The Torah of Moses or Torah of Jesus?
Anonymous
You know the reason why we talk about the future.
Donna
Talking about something and what is happening in the Torah observance are two different things. Can you please answer my question which Torah/instructions for righteous living are you observing, Torah of Moses or Torah of Jesus.
Donna
Anonymous,
What is their justification for the same laws in both covenants? When there is scripture to refute it?
Hebrew 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Under the Mosaic Law Would Jesus need to continually be the sacrificial lamb? God Forbid. That is why this is a different GOSPEL. And Paul says,
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
JGIG
Having sacrifices in a post-New Covenant era, in my opinion, is irreconcilable and would be an abomination. And they *may* happen – there are efforts to get the Temple up and running again, but any blood sacrifices carried out by Levitical priests there will be an abomination to the Once for ALL blood sacrifice of Christ.
Ric Joyner
And this is confirmed in Isaiah 66: THUS says the LORD, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? 2 “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the LORD. “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. 3 “But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck; He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. As they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, 4 So I will choose their punishments And will bring on them what they dread. Because I called, but no one answered; I spoke, but they did not listen. And they did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.” 5 Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at His word: “Your brothers who hate you, who exclude you for My name’s sake, Have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy.’ But they will be put to shame.
JGIG
Anonymous wrote, “JGIG, I found your blog and your questions on the 1,000 year reign. I’m glad you have responses to further the discussion. I have been looking for responses to HRM on the millennium. I can’t answer all your questions, but I have passed your questions to Eliyah ministries.
“These are some points I’ve gathered from videos from Eliyah ministries. I hope one day you will call them and discuss this with them during their live broadcast Q&A.”
My questions are of a rhetorical nature. I’m familiar with Eliyah ministries and won’t be calling them. Scripture is clear on the Priesthood of Christ and its implications.
“– Old covenant is passing away, but not until death is thrown into the lake of fire. We are ministers of the new covenant, but the law is still here to condemn the world. It is the ministry of death to those who do not believe.”
We who are in Christ are dead to the Law (see Romans 7:1-6, Galatians 2:19-21).
The Law is still here to condemn the world . . . and point them to Christ (see Galatians chapters 3 and 4), but not to more sacrifices!
“– During 1,000 year reign, we rule and reign other nations. Torah becomes law of the land.”
The Old Covenant has no priesthood. No priesthood, no Old Covenant. No Old Covenant, no sacrifices. And that is what we’re talking about here – the future offering of animal sacrifices.
“– Animal sacrifices were always symbolic. Could be to for the unbelievers during the millennium.”
A millennium as you describe is 1. an interpretation, and 2. if such a period of time exists in the future, does it nullify the Work and Perfect PERMANENT High Priesthood of Christ (after God has taken an oath that Christ will be a Priest FOREVER)? Rhetorical question, by the way. It’s not possible, and therefore, if enacted, would be an abomination to the Work of Christ.
Why would God sanction blood sacrifices when He’s established a Better Covenant built on Better Promises with a Perfect, Permanent High Priest Who was the once for all FINAL blood sacrifice?
Again, a rhetorical question, as Scripture gives us the clear answer: He wouldn’t.
“GotQuestions says ‘In chapter 44, the Lord gives instructions as to who will be offering sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord states that all of the Levites will not be offering blood and fat to the Lord due to previous sin; it will be those from the lineage of Zadok (verse 15). Chapters 45 and 46 continue to mention that animal sacrifices will be made.’”
Ezekiel 43:10-11
10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider the plan, 11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.”
The whole rest of the passage that those advocating for Millennial sacrifices becomes moot in light of the condition laid out in Ezekiel 43:10-11. God says, “Let them consider the plan and if you are ashamed of all you have done, then . . . “ and has Ezekiel write down in great detail what God would have had in store for Israel, i.e. the new Temple with modified features and protocols, had Israel done the “If”.
Another issue comes up in the Ezekiel 40-48 passage is that some think that the ‘prince’ referred to in Ezekiel 45 is the Messiah, who will preside over the sacrifices offered in the Millennial Temple. Let’s take a look:
Ezekiel 45:21-22
21 “‘In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a feast lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast. 22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.’”
Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is without sin, so the prince mentioned in the above passage cannot refer to Messiah. And as the Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, sacrifices are obsolete anyway (see the Letter to the Hebrews).
Ez. 40-48, from what I see, there was a possibility – a potential restructuring of the Old Covenant – IF Israel agreed to the terms. Israel did not. So Ezekiel’s Temple never came to be. To project it into a Millennial era? I’m content to wait and see, but sacrifices with a different priest – and there would HAVE to be a different priest, because remember, Ezekiel’s Temple priest had to offer sacrifices for sin, first for himself, then for the people. Here’s the thing: Jesus offered the Final sacrifice, and Jesus can’t be the Ezekiel’s Temple priest because He is without sin. And since there is ONE mediator between God and man (see 1 Tim. 2:5), there cannot ever be be TWO priesthoods in operation at the same time! And regarding the sons of Zadok, as if that has any bearing, they are Levites, whose priesthood has been replaced by God in Christ from the Tribe of Judah.
So future sacrifices? It’s a no from me based on Who Christ is, What He came to do, What that accomplished, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood. Christ is to be the center and the lens through which we view every other thing in Scripture.
We must always measure unrevealed prophecies in light of revealed truths. And the things we cannot yet reconcile? That’s okay . . . God knows, and we are to trust Him. Our daily walk and calling to love God and love others is unaffected by what we do or do not know/understand about the Final Things.
(For those curious about the article Anonymous referred to above, it can be found here: https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/millennial-prophecy-measuring-unrevealed-prophecies-in-light-of-revealed-truths/)
Anonymous
JGIG, you said:
“The Law is still here to condemn the world . . . and point them to Christ (see Galatians chapters 3 and 4), but not to more sacrifices!”
“ The Old Covenant has no priesthood. No priesthood, no Old Covenant. No Old Covenant, no sacrifices. And that is what we’re talking about here – the future offering of animal sacrifices.”
—
I have some follow up questions for above. Would you let me know what I’m missing?
—
If unbelievers don’t accept Yahushua, they are condemned by the law, so law is still here. Otherwise, why do they need Yahushua?
—
If animal sacrifices are symbolic, like baptism and communion is symbolic, what is the problem with Yahushua performing symbolic sacrifices as our Royal Priest as he also did symbolic baptism and symbolic communion?
—
If we are the royal priesthood, would there be anything against us perform symbolic sacrifices for unbelievers in millennium?
—
Isn’t Yahushua’s sacrifice the ultimate sacrifice for when the new covenant is complete and when there will be no more death?
If prophecies of millennium with sacrifices are true, what’s the problem with sacrificing in the future as a memorial to Yahushua’s sacrifice in the past just like sacrifices in the past were symbolic looking forward?
Passover meals are a memorial to what happened in Egypt and symbolic of what Yahushua would accomplish.
JGIG
Anonymous, you wrote, “Would you let me know what I’m missing?”
You’re missing Jesus/Yeshua. You’re missing Who He is. What He did. What that actually accomplished. Who believers are in Him.
Why would God require blood sacrifices (death) to memorialize a Living, Permanent, Perfect High Priest?
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one =o).
Ric Joiyner
Appreciate the comments. JGIG
Anonymous
Can you elaborate what about Yahushua I’m missing?
I can’t answer why sacrifices are coming back like many other actions Yahweh has us do, but just because you don’t understand why doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
It could have something to do with the people living outside of the kingdom during the 1,000 reign. We will be royal priests.
Yahushua’s sacrifice once and for all is completed when we finally enter the new heaven and new earth.
“Why would God require blood sacrifices (death) to memorialize a Living, Permanent, Perfect High Priest?”
The tribe in charge of the sacrifices at the temple was the tribe of Levi.
–
Jeremiah 33:15-18 – 5 `In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
16 In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’
17 “For thus says Yahweh:`David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18 `nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’”
–
Isaiah 66:20-22 – “Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to Yahweh out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says Yahweh, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of Yahweh.
21 “And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says Yahweh.
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says Yahweh, “So shall your descendants and your name remain.
–
Yahushua is the high priest of the Melchizedek order, a priest of the heavenly temple, which is greater than the earthly which is only a copy of the heavenly.
–
His sacrifice will indeed put an end to all sacrifices after sin and death are defeated. This takes place after the 1,000 year reign.
–
The New Covenant is a superior covenant because it was established on better promises. The earthly sacrifices were only parables and pictures of what Yahushua did for us. The same is true of baptism and partaking of the body/blood of Yahushua symbolized in eating unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. Just a sign and a symbol, not the reality of what saves us.
–
The signs and symbols would only be abominations if they were believed to be something that actually is capable of cleansing us of sin. They cannot. They are and were only object lessons and parables, not the real deal. Since they are not, it is not an abomination to have a sign and parable of what Yahushua did for us.
–
When Yahushua returns, there will again be sacrifices. That’s very plainly taught in scripture. But they are only something that points people to Yahushua, just as baptism and other signs/symbols do.
Ric Joyner
JGiG watch out for Anon because he goes to Eliyah ministries which is far into the ditch of false HRM teaching like 119. You can go to the “about” section and look at his beliefs. The arguments in here will go round and round with him. Such as, “Keep the law of Moses for Israel you pagan Christians and if you do not you are law breakers. Ps we love Christ more than you Christians because we have the secret knowledge of all the Jewish lingo and feasts etc because we keep the law and the feasts and the…Jewish traditions. In other words. Never about Christ fulfilling the Law (paying our sin debt and) giving us new commandments we keep by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. And us Gentiles are added to the body of Christ by the work of Christ! The perfect blood of Christ is over us! Glory to His name. All praise is His!
Anonymous
The tribe in charge of the sacrifices at the temple was the tribe of Levi.
–
Jeremiah 33:15-18 – 5 `In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
16 In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: YAHWEH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’
17 “For thus says Yahweh:`David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18 `nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.'”
–
Isaiah 66:20-22 – “Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to Yahweh out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says Yahweh, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of Yahweh.
21 “And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says Yahweh.
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says Yahweh, “So shall your descendants and your name remain.
–
Yahushua is the high priest of the Melchizedek order, a priest of the heavenly temple, which is greater than the earthly which is only a copy of the heavenly.
–
His sacrifice will indeed put an end to all sacrifices after sin and death are defeated. This takes place after the 1,000 year reign.
–
The New Covenant is a superior covenant because it was established on better promises. The earthly sacrifices were only parables and pictures of what Yahushua did for us. The same is true of baptism and partaking of the body/blood of Yahushua symbolized in eating unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. Just a sign and a symbol, not the reality of what saves us.
–
The signs and symbols would only be abominations if they were believed to be something that actually is capable of cleansing us of sin. They cannot. They are and were only object lessons and parables, not the real deal. Since they are not, it is not an abomination to have a sign and parable of what Yahushua did for us.
–
When Yahushua returns, there will again be sacrifices. That’s very plainly taught in scripture. But they are only something that points people to Yahushua, just as baptism and other signs/symbols do.
Anonymous
JGIG, do you have a reply to Isaiah 56 on your blog?
Ric Joyner
For me this was a memory scripture when in Messianic Judaism and saw the push toward Torah Keeping. This verse is fulfilled in Christ through the New Covenant giving of the Holy Spirit. We are under the perfect propitiation (complete) blood of God’s sacrifice for mankind. This is why Christ said to nicodemus; you must be born again from above. Once this happens we are new creatures in Christ. We identify with His death burial and resurrection. Romans. We move forward following His words to us in the New Testament and the new commands through the Apostles fulfilling John 14:15 and preach the Good News of the free gift of God. We are empowered by His Holy Spirit from here to by faith in act His words. The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord.
Anonymous
What’s the response to keeping the sabbath in Isaiah 56?
For thus says YHWH:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
Ric Joyner
Not to be rude. What does fulfilled in Christ mean to you? I will tell you. He is the focus. The law calls for perfection. It reveals sin. We are not perfect. We cannot attain perfection. He is God therefore perfect. His blood we walk under. We cry out for a Savior. We place our sin on Him by faith. We take all of His commands 613, 1642 and give Him honor and identify with His death burial and resurrection by faith. His Spirit empowers us. The law is in us. The sabbath in Greek means week or rest. Worship is all the time. We can worship on the day of His rising. Or on Wed at bible study. Service to Him is all the time. When we worship it does not matter because we worship Him. John 4. He is our focus. He fulfilled our rest. Isaiah 56 fulfilled in Christ. Follow Him.
Anonymous
I don’t see how you are connecting “Yahushua is sabbath rest” to “We don’t have to rest on sabbath,” so I would appreciate it if you could go over that step by step with Scripture. I keep hearing about it and it sounds nice, but if Yahushua is the living water and bread of life, do we stop eating bread and drinking water? Some may also say the sabbath rest is not until the new heaven and new earth, but you probably heard it before. I’d like to know what the response to them are.
Ric Joyner
Round and round you go. Scriptures are contained in the principles. Just be honest: you want to keep the law of Moses and anyone else who does not is lawless and not saved. What does fulfilled mean to you? Is Christ enough? We think so. Eph 2-4
Anonymous
What do you mean by principles? Can you give examples?
I’m in no position to judge who’s saved or not. I’m doing my due diligence to see if sabbath is sin or not. I’m gathering reasons from both sides. I already have the overview of both sides. I’m going through the details. I don’t think you want me to decide before I understand the complete truth.
Donna
This will be my last post here. I feel I am being attacked because I do believe there will be a temple in the Millennial Kingdom on earth. What a horrible witness for defending the faith. Having said that, I would like to add my last thoughts on this matter.
It is clear to most Christians and Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ/Messiah the following.
1) There is an Eternal High Priest Yeshua/Jesus who brought a better COVENANT and better Promises.
2) The Spirit of the Law is SUPERIOR to the the Law of Sin and death. Why or even how can people think following the letter of the law delights God? When it rejects the FINISHED work of Jesus on the CROSS!!!
3) In having to continually lay the basic foundation of Life In The Spirit we are failing our call to “make disciples of all nations”. This is a fruitless attempt to accomplish anything.
May all you be blessed By our Lord and Savior Yeshua the Messiah.
Donna
ArnoldF
Rob et al. First time post. I am Jewish believer in Jesus. I came to this site looking for instruction on concerns over the Hebrew Roots movement. Guess I came to the right place. Thank you for clarity and parsing the Word. The only substantive thought I want to share is the disappointment of the Christian charity I see displayed in the majority of those posting–I see this coming out in primarily those posting contrary opinions. I see an overabundance words and a lack in mercy and good fruits of kindness.
Paul discusses this very thing in numerous places in his epistles about the ruination that comes from dissension and quarreling over words and doctrines–I Tim 6:3-5a. Jesus warned us about making our words towards the Father in prayer few in number, but here seeing many words attempting to transform believers into heretics on both sides of the discussion.
Now granted this site is solely for Christians who understand a bit more than the basics and can throw terms around with abandon. If I encountered seeing this level of disunity as a non-Christian, it would likely push me away from the Lord. I will grant that short and simple is not necessarily where the mature Christian winds up, as the scriptures in places are theologically long-winded, complex and requiring the greatest amount of discernment and precision. Peter analyzing his fellow apostle Paul’s words admits that they were difficult and could be twisted by the unstable to their destruction–not necessarily a cheery note of collegiality! Thank you Rob for walking a tight line and bringing clarity to the body of Christ (Yeshua). The Lord give grace and mercy to all.
Anonymous
Can you give examples of how two sides should discuss to find what is the truth? I see the over abundance words you mention. When I ask questions here, the answers aren’t focused or questions are ignored.
Ric Joyner
Rob excellent question. I am torn by even participating because i have seen the “great dodge”.
R. L. Solberg
Thank you, Arnold. Well said! May the Lord grant grace and mercy to us all, indeed.
Shalom, Rob
Erika
Do you know what Jesus of Nazareth Said about those who teach not to obey the Laws? I’m shocked to see you try so very hard to have people disobey YHWH. It’s everyone’s choice, we all will be standing alone before Him. Shalom.
Andrew
No one can ever be made right with God by doing what the Law commands. The Law simply shows us how evil we all are.
But God showed us the way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the Law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ.
Ric Joyner
Andrew well done!
Ron Moseley
Interesting… I agree with most every point. I know how it feels to be misunderstood or accused of being too Jewish, when our intention was the opposite. Just speaking for myself, I have spent a lifetime researching the Jewishness of Jesus, for the single purpose of understanding the context of the New Testament. More often than I care to remember, bloggers or individual lay people have attempted to group me with the died-in-the wool Sabbath keepers. My salvation is in Christ alone and Christ is the LORD of my Sabbath. I think it is quite valuable for Christians to know the Jewish background of their Christian faith, but wow, even some of my students have gone too far… http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/152f.htm#III
Anonymous
Thank you for your message. I am a Hebraic Christian. Or at least that’s how I would describe myself. I enjoyed the read and agree that while I practice old customs I am by no means required to do so. Doing them does not save me and not doing them does not condemn me. I use them as a means to keep me pointed toward God. Much like anything done in life, when the traditions become just as important as God then we have missed the mark. Simply put: Love God with all your heart and love one another. The end. The traditions are there to keep you pointed at these commandments. The traditions in themselves mean nothing. Thank you and God bless.
Ric Joyner
This comment is nice but also so many people that are entering Hebraic roots or Hebrew Roots have these things in common.
1. Overdetail in Hebrew and Jesus Christ name.
2. Use of Jewish traditions to “keep the law”. This is practicing Judaism.
3. Following Moses not Christ. Torah were Hebrew imperatives (commands). It was designed to be used to expose sin not create a to-do list. Rom 9:30-ff. There were 613 commands or instructions. But 247 can’t be kept due to no temple. Yet Christ said in John 14:15 said “If you love Me obey My commands”. Why do Torah keepers go to Moses when Christ gave 1642 Greek imperatives through His teachings and the 12 Apostles? We are to follow Christ now and the words He gave to His direct representatives. Moses pointed to the “prophet” to come. So why aren’t the Hebraic roots people follow Christ under a new covenant with the Holy Spirit in us (Jer. 31) and obey Christ’s commands?
4. The Lord was on the Mt of transfiguration with Moses and Elijah (law and prophets) and God the Father came and said “This is my beloved Son now listen to Him”. The covenant was passed to Christ Who conquered son and death! So let us listen to God the Father.
5. “We love Christ more because we follow the Mosaic law”. Is that true or a wish? Meaning if one adds to the Gospel of Christ we are saved by faith Eph. 2:8-10 not by works of the law. But that is the Gospel. Most people in HR preach for Christians to come under the law of Moses vs. not become born again through Faith in Christ. That truly is not the Gospel.
6. Weirdly many HR folks are Charismatic
7. Weird doctrines permeate the groups such as polygamy. Sick.
8. Poor bible study techniques of leaders and participants. Having good bible study methods would clear up a lot of these issues. Living praiseworthy to God is crucial.
9. Anti Church and Anti Christian rhetoric and bad church history.
Please consider this: You may be being seduced by the enemy to entrap you into this movement.
Consider following Christ and explore His commandments as He commanded us to practice 1642.
Blessings
Anonymous
It is the role of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying believers not the Levitical laws and the Apostles did address this in Acts 15 and Galatians 5 and other places. To keep food laws and say that food makes a believer unclean contradicts what God told Peter, in Acts 10:15. Also some of the things they teach are outright heresy like not keeping the Sabbath is the mark of the beast, coercing Christians with the threat of eternal damnation to do what is voluntary and contrary to what Paul described it as a shadow of things to come. When properly understood the Gospel is clear even our good works for God come from God. There is nothing that we at all can do that we can say we did for God. This is His story and Jesus is the Hero.
Their belief system hinges on one critical doctrine. The unchanging nature of God. But what they fail to understand is what God gave the Israelites was a law which they were to govern their nation based on. In heaven there is no “unclean food” because all comes from God. In heaven there is no distraction which takes your focus off God so there is no need to continually re-align your thoughts to the things of God. These are problems we struggle with because we are waiting for the perfect promised land in the new heaven and the new earth and bodies that are not flesh and blood.
Ric Joyner
Outstanding!