There is a theological movement called Torahism—you might know it as Torah-observant Christianity or the Hebrew Roots Movement. Torahism1 teaches that all Christians should be “keeping Torah,” by which they mean we should be keeping the Law of Moses (aka the “Old Testament law”). The New Testament teaches that keeping these Mosaic traditions are permitted for Christians, but they are not required. So naturally, people have asked why I spend so much time mounting arguments against this lesser-known belief system.
What’s the big deal with the Hebrew Roots Movement and other groups that want to practice some Old Testament traditions? Don’t you say all the time that those things are “permitted but not required?” How is it hurting anyone if some Christians want to keep the Saturday Sabbath, celebrate Passover, or not eat pork?
These are fair questions. Although the motivation behind Torahism may include some noble ambitions—such as wanting to better understand the Christian faith in its original cultural context and wanting to do our best to live in obedience to God—the theology itself contains some dangerous ideas. Let me share with you some real stories about how these teachings can affect families, friendships, and even churches as we examine what I see as the three biggest dangers of this belief system.
1 “Torahism” is an umbrella term for Torah-observant Christianity but not necessarily what they call themselves. The term is in no way intended in a derogatory sense. It is merely a convention for describing a belief system and its adherents. When I refer to someone as a “Torahist,” it is no different than referring to them as a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
Salvation v. Obedience
Before we get to the reasons and the stories, it’s important to clarify what Torahism is and isn’t. The defining element in the theology of Torahism is the teaching that the Torah—by which they mean the Law of Moses—must be kept by all who profess faith in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile. A small minority of Torahists openly teach that “keeping Torah” is a matter of salvation. Most, however, agree with mainstream Christianity that salvation comes only through grace by faith in Jesus (Eph 2:8-9). They believe that “keeping Torah” isn’t what saves us but is how we show our love for God. It is the way we are commanded to live our lives as Christians. In other words, they view Torah-keeping as a matter of obedience, not salvation.
But here’s the catch. All Torahists—even those who profess salvation through Christ alone—teach that not keeping Torah is sinful. They view disobedience of the Law of Moses (such as not observing Saturday Sabbath, kosher food laws, annual feasts, circumcision, etc.) as living in sin and lawlessness. And there are even some Hebrew Roots teachers, such as Steve Moutria of Torah Family, who teaches that “walking in obedience to the Torah keeps you in your salvation.” So despite the claim that keeping the Mosaic Law is not a requirement for salvation, Torahism considers it, at a minimum, a sign of an obedient Christian, and in some cases, a direct issue of salvation.
Anyone who teaches that believers in Jesus are required to keep the Mosaic Law—whether as a matter of salvation or obedience—is teaching Torahism. With that, let’s move on to the three most significant dangers of this belief system.
1. Torahism is Unbiblical
Despite what these groups teach, the Bible does not support a Hebrew Roots worldview. We will look at a few specific examples of this below. (And I have many videos, blogs, and books that go into greater detail on the issue.) That said, there is a challenge in recognizing and resisting Torahism’s theology. If a Christian group were to teach, for example, that adultery or greed was okay, we could point to numerous verses in the Bible that directly contradict their teachings. In the case of Torahism, however, there is no single verse that specifically says, “Christians are not required to keep Torah.” At the same, no verse says explicitly, “Christians are required to keep Torah.”
The relationship of Christians to the Law of Moses is something that we have to dig into Scripture to understand. God wants us to eat His Word, to ingest it every day because through reading His Word, we get to know His heart. It’s about having a real relationship with our heavenly Father. And His Word—the Bible—is how He most often speaks to us. But God doesn’t always give us a nice, tidy list of directions and instructions. I don’t know about you, but I’m a list guy. (Ask my wife!) If God gave me a to-do list, I would be off to the races working on the list and forgetting all about spending time with God. Instead, our heavenly Father wants us to pull up a chair and sit with Him daily. He wants us to spend time with Him, so He can feed us His truth.
The more we get to know the truth of the Word, the easier it is to spot counterfeit teachings. This is what we find in many of the claims of our Hebrew Roots friends. These teachers claim Torahism is biblical, and I’m sure many of them believe it. But the proof is in the pudding. And at the end of the day, the Bible teaches that Christians are not required to keep the Law of Moses, not as a matter of salvation or righteousness. Let’s look at the Scriptural data.
In Exodus 19 and following, we learn that the Law of Moses was given as part of the Covenant at Mount Sinai. It was given to “the house of Jacob” (Ex 19:3). In Scripture, the phrase “the house of” is a way of referring to the family or physical descendants of someone. So even though there may have been a “mixed multitude” (Ex 12:38) traveling with Israel when they were rescued out of Egypt, the covenant God made at Mount Sinai was solely with the “house” or descendants of Jacob, who was also named Israel (Gen 32:28). These were the Jews. No other nation or people group was part of the covenant. In fact, many of the Mosaic laws were given specifically to set the Jewish people apart from the Gentile nations around them. God uniquely chose the Israelites, telling them “you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation ” (Exodus 19:5).
The New Testament later reveals that under Jesus and the New Covenant, things changed. For one thing, it was revealed that the Law of Moses was given as a guardian until Christ came. And now that He has come, God’s people are no longer under that Law (Gal 3:24-25). It’s also revealed that the nature of the People of God has changed. Under the Sinai covenant, the People of God were the Jews (aka the nation of Israel, the House of Jacob). They were designated through ethnicity and lineage. Under the New Covenant, however:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”
-Galatians 3:28-29
That’s right. Believers in Jesus—both Jews and Gentiles—are now considered Abraham’s offspring and the heirs of God’s promises. (I’ll unpack this a bit more below. But spoiler alert: this has nothing to do with the erroneous concept of “replacement theology,” which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel.) And since Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ are now one people, the laws previously given to set Israel apart from the Gentiles are no longer needed.
2. Torahism is Divisive
The second big danger is that Torahism often causes division in the body of Christ. I’ve seen it damage marriages, friendships, families, and even churches. Torah-observant Christians often make keeping the Law of Moses a test of fellowship. Because they view these Mosaic traditions as required of Christians, not optional, they often look down on Christians who don’t keep the Saturday Sabbath or the kosher food laws or celebrate Easter or Christmas. Those Christians are often reprimanded as lawless sinners. Not every Torah-keeper adopts a divisive or arrogant attitude, of course. But if you’ve got a Hebrew Roots person in your life, you know what I’m talking about.
Although many Hebrew Roots believers profess with their lips that salvation comes through faith in Christ alone, I’ve yet to come across any Torah-keeper willing to take the peacemaking attitude that says, “Hey, we can agree to disagree on this issue and still be brothers and sisters in Christ.” The majority of Torah-observant Christians I have interacted with take a prideful and judgmental attitude toward Christians who don’t “keep Torah.” In fact, that’s how I stumbled across this movement in the first place. A few years back, an old friend from church began publicly accusing me of partaking in pagan rituals. Why? Because I celebrate Christmas. (The conversation that grew out of that encounter eventually turned into my book, Torahism.)
To be fair, no belief system, including Torahism, should be judged by those who abuse it. There are no Torah-observant tenets that require its adherents to cause division in their families and communities. But there is a virulent strain of distrust—sometimes even outright rebellion—against the mainstream Christian church in many Torah-observant communities. Romans 14 addresses the in-fighting in the Roman church on the issue of kosher food. Paul admonished his readers that “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit . . . so then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding” (Rom 14:17, 19). And when we look at the common fruits of Torahism, we find the opposite of what Paul taught. Rather than peace and mutual upbuilding, Torahism tends to cause disunity in the body of Christ. And it has done needless damage to families, friendships, and churches.
Often the average Christian senses something is wrong with the idea of Torah-observant Christianity but has a hard time articulating exactly why it’s wrong. So the mainstream Christian and the Torah-observant Christian end up talking past one another, quarreling and arguing without any resolution. The old friend I mentioned who took me to task over Christmas is a perfect example. He and his wife were causing so much turmoil in their family and neighborhood that the people who loved them were at their wit’s end and didn’t know what to do.
In another instance, a woman from Minneapolis reached out to me because her husband has been thinking about leaving the family to move to Israel. He believes it is part of his duty as a believer to make the three annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem required in the Torah. I sat with him for almost two hours and found him to be a soft-spoken, intelligent man who knows his Bible. But he was unwilling or unable to see that those Mosaic traditions are not required of Christians under the New Covenant. I remember him being really upset that he was being “forced” by mainstream Christianity to worship God on Sunday rather than the true Saturday Sabbath.
And interestingly, like every Hebrew Roots believer I’ve ever encountered, he is not Jewish. He is a Gentile, which means he has never been under the Law of Moses, including the Sabbath requirements. And here he is, ready to walk away from his wife and kids in service to Torahism. That’s scary stuff.
But that’s not all. Let me share a few other stories with you. These are actual comments I’ve received:
- A man from Kansas wrote, “Thank you so much for your biblical and logical teaching in your book and on YouTube. With one of my best friends falling into the Hebrew Roots Movement (I partially blame 119 Ministries), I have been struggling to find answers to the questions he raises.” This man later told me that this friend ended up causing so much disruption and arguing within their church small group that they finally had to ask him to leave. (Which he wanted to do anyway because he thought they were all deceived.)
- A man from Tennessee wrote, “I like your videos. My son married a girl recently that her family had been strongly involved in the Hebrew Roots Movement. So, I am researching for myself. I do not believe in the movement myself, nor does my son but, we have to get along with the in-laws. They are starting to come out of it but cling to some of the food laws and feast ideas.”
- A pastor from Connecticut wrote: “My elder brother just sent me this link [to a Hebrew Roots article]. Is this what your book on Torahism is about and do you deal with this subject? I want to learn more just in case my brother is going down a wrong path. By the way, I’ve been a pastor for over 32 years and have an M.Div . . . Please, any help you can offer is greatly appreciated.”
- A woman from Mexico wrote, “I’ve recently come across this movement you mentioned in your book. I’ve dealt with harsh comments and teachings towards Christians… I’ve been a Baptist all my life, and I am concerned about this situation . . . My husband isn’t a Christian, yet; he’s friends with a gentleman who is involved in Hebrew Roots, they’ve known each other even longer than my husband and I have. I’d love to get your book. Is it available from Mexico?”
- An author from Spain wrote, “I just recently bought and read your book Torahism (great job, BTW). I would be interested in chatting with you about the Hebrew Roots Movement. We have this problem in Spain, too.” He and I ended up having a video chat, and he explained to me how the Hebrew Roots teachings are growing, especially among the Gypsy population in Spain, who identify themselves with the lost tribes of Israel. He told me that four prominent Christian leaders in Spain had recently stepped down from their positions in the church to pursue Torahism.
(You’ll find more examples in the comments section below.)
Torahism is real, and it seems to be growing. Thankfully it’s nowhere near as big as other Christian cults, like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormonism. At least not yet. And one of the reasons I do what I do is to help make sure Torahism never gets that big.
3. Torahism Undermines Jesus
The third big danger is that the theological concept at the foundation of Torahism undermines both the Gospel of Jesus and the sufficiency of His work in making us right with God. For one thing, by trying to point Christians toward Moses, these teachings can take our focus off of Jesus. By emphasizing a works-based lifestyle, Hebrew Roots’ teachings deemphasize the “abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness” (Rom 5:17) that is ours through Jesus. But the danger of Torahism is even bigger than what it does to our focus.
The theology of Torahism contradicts and undermines the accomplishments of Jesus through His life, death, and resurrection. Here are seven biblical examples that show how the teachings of Torahism are incompatible with the work of Jesus:
| Under the Law of Moses / Old Covenant | Under Jesus / New Covenant |
| Continual animal sacrifices are required for sin. (Ex 29:10-14, 35-37, 30:10; Lev 4:1-5:13; Num 6:10-14) | We learn “it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Heb 10:4). They were only a reminder of sin. Jesus, however, was our atoning sacrifice (1 John 2:1), which was given once for all (Heb 10:10). If Jesus was our sacrifice once for all, why would we need to continue with the repeated sacrifices required under the Law of Moses? |
| All priests must come from the tribe of Levi. (Ex 29:1-8; Deut 18:1-8; Num 18) | Jesus is now our High Priest (Heb 4:14-15), and he came from the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14), not Levi. We’re further taught that “when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well” (Heb 7:12). How can the Law of Moses still be in effect if our high priest is not from the tribe of Levi? |
| God told the Jewish nation of Israel, “you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Ex 19:6) | All believers in Jesus—whether Jew or Gentile—are described as “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession” (1 Peter 2:9) Contrary to the Law of Moses, every believer in Jesus—whether Jew or Gentile—now qualifies as a member of God’s chosen people. |
| God’s presence or spirit resides in the temple in the most holy place, behind a veil where only the high priest can enter once a year (Exodus 26, 30:10) | The moment Jesus died on the cross, God tore down that temple veil, symbolizing that we now have direct access to God (Matt 27:51; Mark 15:38). We, the body of Christ, are now God’s temple (1 Cor 316-17, 6:14-20; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Pet 2:5). If believers in Jesus are now the temple of God’s spirit, how does it make sense to keep a Law that requires a physical Temple where the most holy place is veiled off and only accessible by priests? Are we to sew back together the temple veil that God ripped apart? |
| Kosher food laws were given to set Israel apart from the Gentile nations around her (Leviticus 11). A person is defiled by what goes into their mouth (Lev 11:44-45). | “Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)” (Mark 7:18b-19). All food is now clean. (Acts 10:9-16, Mark 7:1-23, Rom 11:11-24, 14:1-15:13). How does it make sense to require the keeping of kosher food regulations when Jesus and the apostles taught us that all food is clean? |
| Israel was required to circumcise all males at eight days old. (Lev 12:3). | “If you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you” (Gal 5:2b). For those who place their faith in Jesus, “neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5:6. See also: Acts 15:1-29; Gal 6:15; 1 Cor 7:19; Col 2:11) How does it make sense for Christians to keep the Mosaic requirements for circumcision when the NT tells us that now, under Jesus, circumcision counts for nothing? |
| No commandments shall be added to or taken away from the Law of Moses. (Deut 4:2, 12:32) | Jesus gave us new commands not found in the Torah (Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; John 13:34). For example, nowhere in the Torah will we find anything like this command: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I (Jesus) have commanded you” (Matt 28:19-20). If the Law of Moses is still in effect, how could Jesus give us new commandments? |
I mentioned earlier that we don’t have a verse we can look at that directly teaches that “Christians are not required to keep the law of Moses.” However, you can see how the bulk of evidence in the NT teaches this very point. Not only that, we have a verse we can point to that reveals that the Sinai Covenant, the old covenant, has ended. The book of Hebrews teaches that Jesus is our High Priest and that the New Covenant is a better covenant. And, “In speaking of a new covenant, [God] makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13).
This text was written in the first century when most of the apostles were still alive. And a few years later, in the year AD 70, the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. From that day until now, it has been impossible for anyone to live a truly Torah-observant lifestyle. The temple is gone, the priesthood is gone, the sacrifices have ended. In other words, the old covenant has become obsolete and vanished.
Wrap it Up, Solberg
Look, I get it. This idea that Christians ought to keep the Law of Moses can sound appealing, even beautiful. It seeks to connect us to our spiritual roots in ancient Israel and give us a framework to live out our faith today. This is what draws people into Torahism. But the bottom line is that Torah-observant Christianity is flat-out unbiblical. And anyone who spreads this false teaching is well advised to soberly reconsider what they’re doing. There are many ways to acknowledge and honor the true Jewish roots of the Christian faith without resorting to unbiblical teachings.
The three biggest dangers of Torahism are that their teachings (1.) are unbiblical, (2.) cause division and disunity, and (3.) undermine the work and sufficiency of Jesus. These false Hebrew Roots teachings put an unnecessary burden on believers. They add requirements to living out the Christian faith that were never intended. This is a dangerous stumbling block that promotes the false idea that putting one’s faith in Jesus commits them to keeping all sorts of regulations—about food and days and so on—that aren’t actually required of Christians.
In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul spends chapters three and four making his case that believers in Jesus have been liberated from the law. I’ll close with his summary of that argument: “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal 5:1).
Shalom
Marc W. Richardson
Acts chapter 11, God specifically abrogates the dietary laws. Acts chapter 15, the (Jewish) Apostles, circumcision is done away with as a requirement for gentile believers. See esp. v5 and v9. Our hearts are purified by faith, not the keeping of the law. The summary of the Council of Jerusalem is found in vv19-20.
Kris
Without Torah is it possible to have Sin?
R. L. Solberg
Hi Kris. Adam and Eve did not have the Torah, and they sinned. Same with Cain. The Bible says that sin came into the world through Adam (Rom 5:12), and he lived long before the law of Moses was given.
Shalom, RLS
Casey
But if that was the case why was Abel’s sacrifice righteous and Cain’s wasn’t?
Ric Joyner
Kris, something you may want to do research on for yourself. (Away from Torah teachers) Jesus Christ our Lord, said in John 14:15 that “if you love me you will obey my commands”. What are these commands? Are they the Torah? But how does the Lord Jesus add gentiles into salvation when they do not live in Israel? Jesus gave everyone who believes in Him as Messiah the Holy Spirit Jew and Gentile eph 2-4 and by faith we died to the Law of Moses that defined sin. Rhe law has no bearing on a dead man. See Romans 4-7. The Holy Spirit will define and show our heart motive that causes us sin. But through the Apostles they are tasked to teach us all Jesus said. See John 21 and Acts 2:42. They are the new “moses” taught directly by the Word of God (john 1) Now here is the kicker. Jesus and the Apostles gave us 1642 Greek imperatives which are commands. You can find them at preceptaustin.org section 8. You will spend the rest of your life studying those as a disciple of Christ. Those are “torah” for disciples of Jesus Christ because Torah are instructions. Follow Jesus Christ. And His commands The Lord bless you.
Kris
Brethren I am having a difficult time finding section 8 may you offer better direction so I can find what you are sharing?
Ric Joyner
Kris scroll down to section 8: https://www.preceptaustin.org/greek_quick_reference_guide
Ric Joyner
Marc, outstanding! Well said
Anonymous
Hello. Before I was born again, I was disobedient. Afterwards the Lord put this scripture on my heart, Matthew 7:21-23. Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven but He who does the will of my Father in Heaven ( what has been Gods will since the beginning, keep my commands and live). Many (not a few) will say to Him in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness!’ (Literally torahlessness)
Jesus is telling these who practice their religion without the law of God that they will not be recognized by Him. The commandments are not the law of Moses, they were the words of God, written by the finger of God, set in stone. The law of Moses is the ceremonial,sacrificial atonement laws before Christ came to be our atonement.Jeremiah says the new covenant will include God writing His laws on our hearts and minds. Keeping the commandments keeps us in the love of God. Jesus says that He loves His Father and keeps His Fathers commandments and abides in His Fathers love. The commandments do not save us but they are salvational and they are good for the converting of the soul (psalms19:7) Also in revelation 12 and rev14, it tells us that the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony or Faith of Jesus Christ. King David said, “all Your commandments are righteousness.” Jesus says blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness and blessed are you if they persecute you for righteousness sake. God bless you.
Anonymous
The Great Commission in the Old Testament
Psa 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.
Aaron
I’m just going to ask you five things. Do you know what the Talmud is? If not then that’s the oral traditions brought over from Babylon that Nehemiah helped to institute and the Jews kept adding onto it and haven’t truly followed the ways of the Torah since; they’ve followed a way that makes it impossible to obey the ways of the Torah.
Second, have you actually studied who the Apostle Paul was teaching the entire to truth to? 90-99% were pagans that had never ever read the original scriptures before hence they’d have been doing the pagan festivals and new moon celebrations that were part of their traditions that the modern church participates in to this day. I’ve done some research on this and encourage anyone attacking this movement which is prophesied to happen in Deuteronomy, the prophets, and Psalms to study out what Easter and Christmas really are. Not attacking here just challenging to verify if you really believe the entire Bible or if you made up a New Testament God because you don’t like the Old Testament one.
Third; who does the Apostle Paul say the converts become once accepting Messiah Yeshua/Jesus? Israelites was what he called them; Christian didn’t become official until Constantine made it so and killed off the true church/congregation as much as he could. History will bear this out look up the councils of Nicea and Laodicea and the rest of the history of the early church, look up Polycarp and study him.
Fourth; how many tribes of Israel were there at Mount Sinai and were there ”foreigners”, like maybe a mixed multitude, there accepting the covenant with them?
Five: How long does God say His feast days and statutes last? You’ll have to read the Old Testament for this one and in detail.
You see I know there are overzealous Torah observant followers and I know people like you who don’t have the truth in you and just want to attack them are going to continue to pop up; I’m cool with that because the Word says it will happen. The truth is people waking up to the entire Bible freak out and see the truth and see the lies the church us perpetrated on them and make a total 180 change back to the ways of God. We know the Torah doesn’t get us through the door but if you read Paul’s letters in context, understand history, and take the racism the church has injected into the front of their Bibles and remove it you will see the truth. I read you article and I agree there are crazy Torah followers but there’s also the ones who understand scripture and have their eyes opened to the Truth and simply follow the Word as written including listening and obeying the Prophet like Moses who was/us Yeshua/Jesus the of Nazareth. I grew up in a Baptist church then swapped to the Pentecostal church and actually read my Bible and study history with it; if you ever want to have a discussion about this I’ll gladly have one.
R. L. Solberg
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Aaron! I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I agree with you that there are overzealous Torah-observant Christians and there are others who are more reasonable about it. But no matter where a Christ-follower lands on the Torah-observant spectrum, if believe they are required to keep Torah, they are missing the mark. Let me take a stab at answering your five questions:
I have another question for you. What do you mean by “the racism the church has injected into the front of their Bibles”? Also, BTW, you might enjoy my book Divergence: Examining Jewish-Christian Relations in the Early Church. In it, I take a scholarly look at the theology of the Christian church across the first three centuries of the faith. And one of the issues I examine is anti-Semitism in the early church. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it!
Shalom,
Rob
Anonymous
Yeshua did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, He came to fulfill it. Salvation is a divine act, consecration is a human endeavor through the Ruach haKodesh who sanctifies us, convicts us, and leads us in truth to live in holiness, apart from the heathens, so that we don’t stray away from Hashem’s Word. His Law is pure, His commandments give life. There is absolutely no difference nowadays between so-called “Christians” and heathens. You wear the same clothes, you speak the same way, listen to the same music, eat the same foods, entertain the same vane thoughts, full of tattoos, and so many other things. This is not how Hashem wants us to live. If you are saved, then you should live accordingly, otherwise there is no difference, and His love does not abide in you. Our body is the temple of the Ruach haKodesh. Hashem’s Word does not change, and the Scriptures are filled with Hashem’s commandments from beginning to end, the first one being, “Let there be Light.” We are to live in the Light and not darkness. Hashem’s Law is a light unto our path, a lamp unto our feet. And if we are listening to the Ruach haKodesh, the Torah continually brings us to the knowledge that we are insufficient on our own, and salvation is only through the blood of Yeshua. All praise be to Adonai!
Ric Joyner
Anonymous, how did Jesus fulfill the law and the prophets?
Liah
The messiah fulfilled the law with love, LOVE G-D THE ABBA with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself, because when we love we dont fornicate, kill, rob, covet, fornicate, Ecc. the LAW is LOVE!
David Morales
This is taken from the article.
Premise 1:
“The law was given to the Jewish people to set them apart from the Gentile nations around them. Because the Jews were Abraham’s offspring to whom God had given a promise”
Premise 2:
“Believers in Jesus—both Jews and Gentiles—are considered Abraham’s offspring and the heirs of God’s promises.”
Conclusion:
The law was given to us, because we are Abraham’s offspring. To set us appart from the gentiles!
R. L. Solberg
Haha! Thanks, David. This an excellent example of the absurd conclusions we can come to when we establish our premises with no regard for context. Best, Rob
eltantillo
It would be of much more blessing to point out how the context changes the premises and therefore the conclusion, than simply pointing it out. It is useless for me to say that “your comment is the perfect example of someone who has no arguments”, just because it lacks them, if I do not indicate what those arguments could be. One is a criticism with no desire to help, the other seeks to help the one who has the error.
I am very open to correct my mistakes, but we all need to be told what they are, no one goes through life with a clear conscience doing things they know are wrong.
stilllifeadventures906435745
Four long years, I have lived under a husband, that first found “Torah” through a person, who also sarcastically said something of this nature, “Flat Earth, is a salvation issue you stupid deceived Roman rooted followers of the Son of Zeus, Christians.”, Rob Skiba (RIP)…His, (my husband’s) entry into the torah movement went from Rob Skiba’s FE, to and introduction to, Justin Best, a YouTuber, who has since become apostate through his false teachings against Paul…He moved on from Justin to find another, very sarcastic and condescending guy out of Colorado, named, Sean (Kingdom in Context)…thousands of hours of YouTube under their tutelage…and absolutely no sharpening…just sitting under teaching…NOT ONE TIME did I not hear slander come from the mouths of these people, against the Church, The Bride of Christ and others that did not agree…this rubbed off on my husband…
James 4:11
Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
Proverbs 10:18
He who conceals hatred has lying lips,
And he who spreads slander is a fool.
Colossians 3:8
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Slanderous behavior in a very public place, I might add…
My husband also found a “fellowship” here in MO in the city of Nixa, led by Adam Fink (Parable of the Vineyard)…I attended two Sabboth meetings this past summer, to “check things out”, because a couple of women he met from Passover, had been contacting him through FB and texts without my knowledge and the conversations were inappropriate for a woman unmarried, talking with a man who is married. When this issue was brought up to the fellowship leadership, there was no reprimand to any party, and they actually swept the issue under the rug…We also have two young girls 9 &10 who I was trying to protect…There are also issues of Polygamy within this group as well…as of July, the leadership had not “decided” if the first wife had the right to leave her husband, who had taken a second wife without her “giving’ the woman to him…the second “wife” was pregnant at the time by her husband…
The last and only second, Shabbat, I attended in June 2021, the elders, appointed by Adam and only Adam, stood up during Shabbat and told the group, “NO ONE was allowed to invite anyone new into the group, without them first being ‘vetted’ and cleared by the eldership” (there are 6 elders for less than 100 people) My husband and I were the “first” asked to meet with them, as I was not a Torah observant member (wasn’t/won’t be)….
This group is currently in the works for the purchase of “compound land” in Ava, MO, to start a living together fellowship and “invited” my husband, who is in real estate to help with that transaction…
Sadly, through the extreme abuses: mentally, physically, and spiritually, against me, I cannot fight anymore the constant condemnation ..our marriage is coming to an end…(God does have the final say and I’m in hope for restoration)
They, HRM, can never say, “it’s not a salvation issue”, because in this house, through the teachings of: Justin Best, Rob Skiba, Adam Fink, 119 Ministries, and Sean (KIC), I have been told/screamed at by my husband, that I will not be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Because I am not following my husband into Torah, I am an unbelieving, lawless, unsubmitted wife, who has “uncovered herself” and because I do not believe the cosmology of Flat Earth Theory, I cannot even understand truth…That’s a big arrow from the evil one to my heart and psyche…because, if I cannot understand truth, I cannot even know Jesus, because He IS THE TRUTH!!!…and it has been stated more than a hundred times about me for the past four years…THIS IS THE LEGACY of HRM/TORAH OBSERVANCE…
This movement, with my husband’s help, has destroyed not only me and my immediate family, but also the relationship with his dad, mom, grandpa, grandma, older daughters, sister, nieces, nephews, FIL, MIL, B&SILs, and almost all of his friendships…(The irony with all those relationships that he broke by abuse, they/We/I, still love him. Us Christians who are in a Roman rooted religion, still love him)…and furthermore, this is not the unity the Apostles taught The Bride of Christ to adhere, too, this is the “stupid arguments” & “false teachings” we were told to stay away from…
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Ephesians 4:1-6
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy[a] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel…
If the movement is of The Spirit and led by The Spirit, it will show the fruits…But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23
R. L. Solberg
It breaks my heart to hear your story Thank you so much for sharing it. A lot of people wonder what the big deal is with the Hebrew Roots/Torah-observant movements. They don’t see the danger in it. You’ve just explained it better than I ever could. Blessings, Rob
Cheryl
My prayer for this dear sister is that Jesus will bring healing to her. Her sharing this story gives me greater motivation to help my pastor move away from hrm. I am truly sorry and pray that the Lord will reknit your heart and bring joy to you.
Bola
What stop a woman to submit wisely to her husband if it comes to the matter of faith when is not that his sinning , I just became Torah observer but married for over 30years with my husband we’ve both been Christian all our lives together raising our children all we’re talking about is scripture, I have right to believe or not believe in what what my husband believe, but for the fact that I want and love my husband and my children I will lovingly submit my self to his leadership and his authority scripture teaches women to obey and learn from there husband. Christianity do not want to follow Torah but paganism in everything my questions is this what is there business with the Bible that contains LAWS and the PROPHETS
Ric Joyner
Bola,
Dear one beware that you are now in the snare of this Torah Keeping heresy and therefore in the enemy camp. It will and does lead people away from the Lord Jesus Christ to keeping Torah. Christ did not call us to that. Paul, in Galatians warned people who preached keeping Torah to new gentile christians to stop it and not to be a Judaizer. Who were they and what do they do? They were jewish people believing in Christ who wanted to protect Judaism by getting gentile people to practice Judaism (Torah). The Lord Jesus was promised to come by the prophets so He came. Fulfilled! Christ is the Word of God and paid our debt of sin by His perfect sacrifice for all who believe on Him. he fulfilled the law. Paul says we died to sin and the law (eph 4 and Romans) by faith. It has always been about faith. Not what we do. The HRM crowd of false teachers have to denigrate Christianity to get people to join them. And that is the hook. False history, over generalizations, and they have you. Don’t go further into this false teaching until you personally get bible study method training. Hrm believes in polygamy in many circles. Sick
David
What is your belief in pretribulation rapture? THAT is a snare to those who believe in it.
stilllifeadventures906435745
Bola, “wisely” is a very operative word here. “As unto The Lord”, is also a scripture portion for wives to follow. Jesus would never ask me to do something contrary to His Holy Spirit.
Yes, I do get to choose whether I sin or not and according to Paul in Galatians 5:
“Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
I have not studied out the words “in everything”, but I can deduce, that if my husband is asking me to help him murder the next door neighbor; I would be righteous in telling him, no, and then calling the authorities to have him arrested. I would be justified in not submitting…
Parallels can be made for him “requiring me” to enter this movement!
As a Christ Follower (Christian), I don’t want to be associated with such things…and have witnessed all of the following:
– The number of people spiritually “murdered” by this group, is astounding!
– “Love your neighbor”, in this group, really seems to only mean, “those who are in it” and often, they do a very poor job of doing that.
– The amount of hatred and spewing of vitriol, HRM have for Christians, is astounding and not of the Holy Spirit! (Jesus said, if you hate your brother, you have commited murder…)
– The amount of men and women, just in the group my husband fellowships with, that have left their spouses (for non-biblical reasons) and divorced them, because of HRM beliefs is astounding!
– The lack of True Peace in this group is astounding!
– The hypocrisy within the group is astounding!
– The polygamy and the “matchmakers” in this group is astounding!
– The abuse of children in this movement is astounding!!
– The the amount of physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual abuse, committed against women in this movement is astounding!!
Jesus would not ask me to step into a movement that literally defames His name…I am a Ezer-Kenegdo…not a helpmeet.
Also, the insinuation that I have not submitted is pretty bold statement from someone that does not know me.
The steps I have taken in Honoring my husband and submitting what is fitting:
– I have taken pork out of our diet
– I Sabbath with him
– I go to feasts with him
…which I might add is pretty much the sum of all that HRM do…the only difference in me and you, him, them; I don’t believe it has anything to do with my salvation…and for that, I am called unbiblical, without salvation and a plethora of other names and statements…
Regards,
Ida
Anonymous
If you see something, say something. Don’t stay silent in your HRM groups. You do know there are homosexual Christians saving their virginity until marriage. Some of the seven churches of Revelation had problems.
Send your unbiblical divorcée to this study
https://eliyah.com/marriage-divorce-remarriage/
Ric Joyner
Well said Ida. I have seen it all too.
Ric Joyner
Ida watch out for the Anonymous person they are appear to support a Torah Keeping cult heresy. Beware of them. Christ fulfilled the Law through His death and resurrection. We believe Him for justification. This group has teaching that is HRM.
Anonymous
Ida watch out for the Anonymous person. This group teaches HRM and teaches against every problem you listed above.
https://eliyah.com/what-to-do-if-you-want-to-serve-yahweh-but-dont-know-where-to-start/
1. Admit you are a sinner.
Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of Yahweh;
2. Repent! In other words, turn away from what you know to be wrong and commit your life to walking in righteousness, by biblical standard.
3. Believe in Yahushua the Messiah (commonly called ‘Jesus’) and accept His offer to cleanse you from all sin. Pray to Yahweh a sincere prayer of repentance and confess that you believe that Yahushua the Messiah died so that all of your sins could be laid on Him. Ask for forgiveness of your sins in Yahushua’s Name and you will be forgiven! This is a wonderful free gift!
1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
3. Become baptized in the name of Yahushua the Messiah! This marks a public confession of your newfound faith and commitment to walking in uprightness and truth. If you can’t find someone who will baptize you in His real name, let me know and I may be able to find someone who will. Now go and sin no more!
Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous
If we do away with the law of God, we do away with the knowledge of sin, if we do away with the knowledge of sin then we do away with the need to repent, if we do away with the need to repent then Jesus Christ died in vain. He did not come preaching a different word, He came teaching His Fathers word. If He came to fulfill the law, the way you see it, then why would He exhort me to pluck out my eye if it causes me to sin because it is better to enter the kingdom without one of my members then for my whole body and soul to be cast into hell? If Jesus death, nullifies obedience to God, why would I have to make war on myself in order to make it into heaven (Jesus says obedience is salvational). But they didn’t hear His words either. There are plenty of no HRM groups that seek to put righteousness to death I. The earth and win souls to for hell. Let’s come back to the middle. Left and right extremism is found in every sphere of life. So let us not kill the whole movement for the actions of some who do not have the right spirit. Jesus taught us how the law applies to my inward man. God have mercy.
R. L. Solberg
Here’s the thing: God’s laws about right and wrong and obedience and love have existed since the very beginning, long before the law of Moses was given. Murder isn’t wrong because it says so in the 10 Commandments, it has been wrong since Cain and Abel. Sexual immorality isn’t wrong because the law of Moses says so. It’s been wrong since Sodom and Gomorrah. Romans 5:13 says that sin was in the world before the law was given. And sin has been wrong since before we had the Mosaic law to tell us so. And that hasn’t changed. Christians are called to avoid sin and to live lives of love, service, purity, obedience, and moral virtue. Blessings, Rob
Lorrie
Anonymous,
God’s moral code was from the beginning. Later a called out family, Israel became His chosen nation to honor and represent Him to the world. They were given that written code to follow. It came with blessings and curses.
The Law brought a curse. It was perfect but man could not nor can not follow it.
Amazing news…you and I have never been under the Law.
Christ fulfilled the Law. He was the only One who could. He did not die in vain!
Christ died for the sins of the whole world!
We are reconciled to God through His shed blood not following the Law.
The Mosaic penalty for sin was fulfilled. We still sin today and there are earthly repercussions on many levels. Yet, God sees us through His Son’s sacrifice.
Rest in that. It will bring peace and love to your heart that will overflow to others. Others will be drawn to the One who lives in you.
Ric Joyner
Lorrie, this is very well written. Very well
said. Unfortunately he teaches this false doctrine to subtly lead people under the Mosaic law and bondage not to Christ. Great job!
Lisa
My life is falling apart because of this movement. Huge mistakes were made and some of which were made because I wasn’t let in until too late.
My family, marriage, job, home…have all been effected. I cried on the side of the road for months wishing I could make this make sense.
My breaking point was when my niece who is three quietly told me while picking wild blackberries that apple pie is evil.
It’s just too much. I hope your book will help with this. My family has been very shaken with all of this. I pulled away and now my in-laws think I am lawless, sinful and evil. They even tried to separate my husband and I saying I am mentally unstable.
R. L. Solberg
It breaks my heart to hear this, Lisa. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. Sadly, you’re not alone. I hear from many people whose families are being damaged by these Torah-observant heresies. But I can also say “you are not alone” in another far more beautiful sense. God sees you and He is with you, even in the midst of the mess. I have also heard from a number of people who have come out of the Hebrew Roots cult and their families have been restored.
I know you didn’t ask for my advice, but I would encourage you in this time to lean into God and pray for your family. I don’t think we can fully appreciate the power and radical nature of Jesus’ command “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” until we’re enduring persecution ourselves. This passage came to mind for you:
“Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:14-21)
Blessings, Rob
Ida
Lisa, I totally understand all that you have written…I am sorry you are facing it as well. Just today, I asked my husband to read from a real translation of scripture (he was reading the paraphrased version, “The Living Bible” to my girls. Simply asked he read from a non-paraphrased version a d he called me a unruly I submitted wife who just won’t let him lead. Then went on to tell me I’m lawless…six months ago, he would have skewered anyone who read anything other than KJV…there just isn’t any rhyme or reason to it all. We were forced to watch and hour long conversation glorifying, Matthew Janzen, and his Torah teaching and told it was scripture for the Sabbath…so frustrating…prayers for you and your family. Hold Strong in Your Faith!!!
Jay
I’m sorry you have met such ugly people when you encounter this movement. Let’s get to the root of the divide. There is plenty of scripture to back up Shabbat is a holy day and suppose to be observed. There is no scripture evidence of SUNday worship. The other great issue is Christmas and Easter. These are not observed by the messiah or his apostles. However the feast day were and should be celebrated by all believers. There is evidence that Christmas and Easter have pagan roots. The feast days roots or written right in the Bible. It’s even debated on when the birth of our messiah was. He never mentioned he celebrating his birthday or said anything about his birthday. It is irrelevant to scripture. I’m not saying your evil or condemned for celebrating it. It’s just not scriptural backed up. The movement is similar to the Protestant movement. We just want to get back to what scripture says. Love you and bless you as a fellow believer in the messiah.
Anonymous
The First century church commonly gathered on the first day of the week, Sunday. John 20:19. Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday. Acts 20:7, they were gathered together on the first day of the week to break bread and Paul talked to them. First Corinthians16:2, Paul instructed the Corinthians On the first day of the week that when they gather to put aside something to be given to those and need.
Smiley
Just because they Gathered on the first day of the week , doesnt mean that Sabbath was changed to this day. You can worship or teach Any day But the difference is that God himself set this seventh day apart as holy and He said to remember it. He knew we would forget and do our own thing.
darla723
The reason they gathered was to on the first day for the same reason we do today , to celebrate the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ(Yeshua) an to break bred the primary purpose of the gathering was the Lord’s Supper. and in Acts they were first called Christians see Hebrews 4:8-10 tells us that Christ and His finished work is our Sabbath, our rest..:When did they start calling them Christians?
The first recorded use of the term (or its cognates in other languages) is in the New Testament, in Acts 11 after Barnabas brought Saul (Paul) to Antioch where they taught the disciples for about a year, the text says that “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch” (Acts 11:26). I believe that Christ would not be celebrating his resurrection since he still walked here and to think he would makes no sense in logical reasoning as he had not died. Christ fulfilled the feasts in being the passover( The Lamb perfect) He takes away the sins of the world. He fulfilled the some of the other feasts of unleaven bread, first fruits( he was the first fruits from the dead to be resurrection…he fulfilled Penecostal ( the church was born the descending of the Holy Spirit (fire)) so he will fulfilled the remaining feasts. The church celebrates these feasts therefore in a new way so perhaps Torah people are missing this I believe. The ones I have encounter on FB and listened to the videos they gave I encounter may scriptures verse from Holy Spirit that this is a false teaching especially on Matthew 5:17-18( missing the point where it says till all is fulfilled(the word fulfilled means to fill out, expand, or complete. it does not mean to bring to and end.1. Jesus fulfills the law in several ways: He obeyed it perfectly and taught its correct meaning( v. 19,20) 2. he will one day fulfill all of the Old Testament types and prophecies;and 3. He provides a wya of salvation that meets all all the requirements of the law(Rom. 3;21,31). I pickup an arrogant attitude of condemning other Christians in Christ from their teachings. There is a reason for the New Covenant ( as Hebrews teaches why )….this from a friend on the Christmas date and it will help to see that Christ’s Birth may by Dec. 25….Many people wrongly assume that Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) “was born on the feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles)”, which is a direct contradiction of all of the collective proofs. A wide variety of credible, ancient biblical and historical evidences collectively and conclusively prove 100% beyond all reasonable doubt that Yeshua was born on the sacred festival of Hanukkah, when the biblical lunar-solar calendar date 25 Kislev 3757 overlapped the solar Julian calendar date December 25th, 5 B.C. Those who believe in the Sukkot birth date myth ignorantly quote Yochanan (John) 1:14 as alleged “proof”, while not even realizing that the Greek verb, “skenoo” simply means, “to dwell ; encamp, etc.”, and is a common word which contextually applies to all human beings, etc., who live in dwellings. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with the feast of Tabernacles, which is a fall harvest that is celebrated as Hebrews gather in Jerusalem. Joseph and Miriam (Mary) were descendants of the tribe of Judah, and did not travel to Jerusalem, but instead, went from the Galilean town of Nazareth to Bethlehem, because it was the city of David, for the Romans demanded that all twelve tribes of Israel return to their original ancestral hometowns for the census.
We know from Scripture that Yeshua was born at the time of the first Roman census (Luke 2:1-2) when Quirinius was Governor of Syria. A review of Roman documents describe this time frame as late in the year of 5 B.C. (3757). The year of the Crucifixion is confirmed by several historians due to the darkness that occurred from noon until 3:00 PM on 14 Nisan 3790 (April 5th, 30 A.D.) during the festival of Passover (Pesach). The historians Phlegon, Thallus, Africanus and Tertullian all mention this three hour period of darkness, that does not have a scientific explanation. It was neither a lunar or solar eclipse for many reasons. Eclipses do not last three hours and cannot happen during the full moon of Passover. This was a supernatural act of Yahweh.
For example Thallus, a Samaritan historian who wrote around 52 AD, and Phlegon, a Greek historian, both recorded the darkness. Thallus tried to explain away the darkness as an eclipse. Julius Africanus (AD 160-240) researched the topic of the darkness and wrote the following: “Upon the whole world there came a most fearful darkness. Many rocks were split in two by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. It seems very unreasonable to me that Thallus, in the third book of his histories, would try to explain away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun.”
The Hebrews celebrate their Passover on the 14th day according to the moon. But an eclipse of the sun can only take place when the moon crosses the sun. How then could an eclipse have occurred when the moon is directly opposite the sun? Scientifically it is impossible to have a full moon on the same day that there is an eclipse of the sun. The Roman historian Phlegon is mentioned by Origen who describes a darkening of the sun in the eighteenth year of Tiberius on 14 Nisan-Passover which would be 30 A.D. (3790). According to the context of the Gospel Scriptures, Yeshua (Jesus) was 33 years old when He died. If you calculate 33 years backwards from 30 A.D. (3790), it is 5 B.C. (3757), when He was born.
If anyone wants to conduct accurate ancient Hebrew biblical lunar-solar calendar date conversions to the solar Roman Julian calendar dates, then I highly-recommend this site.
[If the links are not clickable, then please copy-and-paste them into a new internet window/page to visit the websites]
Here is the date conversion data from the Hebrew calendar year 3757 (Roman Julian year 5 B.C.):
http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?hebrew=3757
This is the date conversion data from the Hebrew calendar year 3790 (Roman Julian year 30 A.D.):
http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar/?hebrew=3790
This site has an accurate calendar date duration calculator :
https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1247118517
Chag Chanukah sameach (Happy Hanukkah 🕎 festival). Yeshua (Jesus) is the Reason For The Season. HalleluYah!!! 🙌 Many credible biblical, historical and archaeological evidences confirm in unison that our Savior was born on the sacred festival of Hanukkah, when the biblical lunar-solar calendar date 25 Kislev 3757 overlapped the solar Julian calendar date December 25th, 5 B.C. It is unfortunate that we are told many speculative untruths in opposition to the factual birth date of Yeshua haMashiach (Iesous Christos / Jesus the Anointed One) by non-credible sources who ignorantly spread misinformation propaganda. The purpose of this article is to expose and conclusively refute and disprove those myths.
“Historical Proof Of The Birth Of Yeshua (Jesus) The Messiah On Hanukkah (25 Kislev 3757 / December 25, 5 B.C.)”
http://insightfromourheavenlyabbaslight.blogspot.com/…
May be an image of text that says ‘世ש העולם! אור הוא ישוע Yeshua is the Light of the world!’Shalom
Lorrie Kinlaw
Christ is our sabbath rest. We are to present our bodies, a living sacrifice. All days are His and holy.
Run from this cultic teaching. Truth…You were never under Torah and you can’t keep it. Israel could not keep it and they had the temple in Jerusalem; the Levitical priesthood and the sacrificial system.
Paul’s messages were given to him by the risen Lord! Please keep reading the Scripture. The truth was progressively revealed. Take into account historical context and audience relevance.
Most importantly, Christ fulfilled Scripture!!
Ric Joyner
Lorrie well said. Part of the prob in HBR is the anti church sentiment and lack of proper biblical study methods. Wrong input equals bad output. Thanks!
eltantillo
Christ is our justice as well, does that mean we no longer have to do justice?
Anonymous
Christ is the bread of life, do we stop eating bread?
Anonymous
I don’t think RL ever responded to the 1,000 year reign where there will be sabbath, feasts and sacrifices.
The law does contain sacrifices, but none of those sacrifices ever took away sin. They only pictured the one who does. They were physical illustrations of a spirtual truth. The same is true of baptism and partaking of the unleavened bread and fruit of the vine representing Yahushua’s body/blood. They are physical illustrations of a spiritual truth. Do we no longer baptize because now we have the Messiah? Do we no longer partake of the communion?
The day will come, during the 1,000 year reign, that the law will be the law of the entire world. And everyone will keep the feast days, the Sabbath and the new moons.
Isaiah 66:23-24 – And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says Yahweh.
24 “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Zechariah 14:16-21 – And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which Yahweh strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE YAHWEH ” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in Yahweh’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to Yahweh of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of Yahweh of hosts.
There will again be feasts and yes, vs. 21 says sacrifices. Read Ezekiel 40 to the end. Yahushua is coming to set up a new covenant reign, not an old covenant reign. And the Sabbath, feasts and even sacrifices are a part of that. I know that comes as a shocker to those stuck in traditional Christian theology and eschatology, but it is the truth. Receive it or reject it… your choice.
But the sacrifices and feasts will simply represent what they always have represented: The plan of salvation for all mankind. Just like baptism and communion. The existence of a fulfillment does not mean “do away with” or “ignore this commandment here.” It means He did it, and He wants us to walk as He walked:
1 John 2:6 – He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked
Our choice
Ric Joyner
The sad part of your post is that it is so biblically twisted it borders on deception. A hard core deception. The logical conclusion you hope we are deceived by is like the 3 cup magic trick with the ball in it on the street corner. The logic you want us to conclude is “because the nation of Israel will have these sacrifices” during the millennium all believers better get in line with the heretical teachings of HRM and learn to keep Torah. This is bizarre teaching. It borders on blasphemy to the Lord Jesus Christ sacrifice for us! Your posture is Get in line with the law of Moses because you will have to do that in the millennial Kingdom. Ot does not matter apparently that it is people who went through the tribulation and live on earth and are born during the M-kingdom! And all those saved before Christ and after Christ who are believers are in Christ have new sinless bodies. These prophecies are not for Christ believers. This is basic bible hermeneutics and destroys your false teaching. All Jews and Gentiles are under the Law of Christ which has 1642 Greek Imperatives given to us by Christ and His disciples. Torah means instruction. Why disobey Christ’s command (instruction) to follow Him and His apostles (acts 2:42 and John 20:20-23)? No one could keep the law of Moses because it required perfection. Only God is perfect. Christ came as the second Adam and God to pay our penalty for sin. Law of Moses fulfilled. The prophets proclaimed He was coming. Fulfilled. This teaching and all of Torah Keepers and HRM (even some Messianic Judaism) take our eyes off of Christ to practice the Torah and rabbinic Judaism. No call from Christ asks us to do that. Learn all you can from the Bible on what Israel had to do but live for Christ today in the world. And this teaching is so false. Be warned, if you believe in Christ as savior you will have a new sinless body in the millennium. Pls people disregard this person as fast as you can.
Anonymous
There’s no twisting. It’s a simple question.
If your logic is if the Messiah fulfilled the law, so we don’t need sabbath today, then the question is why do we do sabbath with Messiah in the millennium when it is fulfilled?
I don’t see anyone responding to this question because your definition of fulfilled doesn’t work here.
Regarding the above comments on “fulfill,” there are many different ways of describing obedience in the bible. Walking out commandments, living out His word, observing His commands, keeping His ways, etc. In the case of Yahushua, He loved Yahweh and He loved His fellow man. This is how He fulfilled the law. We are also told to fulfill the law by loving one another. This is another way of describing obedience to the commandments, all of which are teaching us how to love Yahweh and how to love one another.
Romans 13:10 – Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8 – Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Galatians 5:14 – For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
And we cannot love one another unless we love Yahweh:
1 John 5:2 – By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we love Elohim and keep His commandments.
Yahweh doesn’t “ask,” us to love, He commands it. If we walk in love by keeping His commandments, we will also be actively fulfilling the law.
The Messiah was sent, by our Father’s command, to do what He was predicted to do: Die for our sins. He fulfilled that part of the law also. That wasn’t for us, it was for Him to accomplish. Yahweh knew that all of us had sinned, and have failed to fulfill the law’s demands. For this reason, Yahushua did what the law could not do for us:
Romans 8:3-4 – For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The requirements were fulfilled in us, as long as we are willing to walk in the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh. What’s the difference between walking in the Spirit and walking according to the flesh? Let’s continue reading…
Romans 8:5-7 – For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim; for it is not subject to the law of Elohim, nor indeed can be.
The flesh is not subject to the law, and has no interest in walking as Yahushua walked, fulfilling the law. Thus, it is not subject to the law. But if we have the Holy Spirit, we are going to subject ourselves to what the law tells us to do. That’s why it is predicted:
Ezekiel 36:27 – “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Anonymous
“No call from Christ asks us to do that.” We don’t do Rabbinic Judaism because Yahushua is our Rabbi, but we do repent according to the definition of sin when Messiah preached repentance. When the Messiah was preaching repentance, what was the definition of sin? We also follow commandments of the Messiah and apostles.
Ric Joyner
There is literally no point in arguing with you as the deception is incredible. You put yourself under Torah as the Jews did and become blind ignoring Christ’s commands. You have a different Gospel. Jesus plus Torah. You all who are Torah Keepers follow rabbinic judaism. Example how does one “do” sabbath? Well typically they research Judaism to figure out how to do it. Make havdalla bread? Have candles and a pre programmed prayers by having women start the sabbath? Model your service after Jews? Get prepped for sabbath the day before? Check for 3 stars on the day of closing? Check for new moons? Disregard the resurrection of Christ which fulfilled the Torah for passover? Would you tell people to leave their job to not work on sabbath? Eat Kosher when Christ said it is what comes out of man’s heart that defiles them? Ignore the law of Christ? Will you go to Jerusalem for the new temple for the tribulation and sacrifice? Many will in Hrm. Ever heard of polygamy in Hrm? How about spiritual marriages? Sick. Of course you follow Rabbinic Judaism. You have no other model to “do” torah. Hate the name Christian? The HS called us Christians in Acts. You are followers of Moshe who pointed to Christ and disregard God the Father’s command to “now listen to Him” in Mark 9 with Elijah and Moses there. Jesus said follow me but you twist and ignore Scripture blatantly to follow torah and preach a gospel of keeping torah not salvation. The worst part about this false teaching you push, as all false teachers do, is take Scripture out of context as you did in the millennial kingdom prophecy. I noticed you didn’t deal with that. Bad bad false teaching.
Anonymous
Your experience with TO/HRM aren’t the same for all. Do you follow the Roman catholic pope? Some TO/HRM don’t follow rabbinic traditions. Example, remember sabbath by simply helping others and congregate to hear the word and don’t work cook and boil. They don’t judge every detail what you do on sabbath because we have different convictions from the Spirit. Checking for new moons is Scripture, not rabbinical. They don’t eat lamb for Passover. Would you fire people for not working on Sabbath? Yahushua was talking to Pharisees in the context of men’s tradition of washing hands before eating food. Pork was never food for them. We love the commandments of the Messiah. They teach against polygamy in countries where it causes people to stumble. They’re only model for Torah is Scripture. No extra traditions. They don’t hate the name Christian. Acts also says we’re followers of the Way. Laws of Moshe are commandments of Yahweh given through Moshe. We are ultimately following Yahweh whether the commandments are from Moshe or Yahushua or apostles.
Now that we got that out of the way, what did I say that was false or out of context about the millennium kingdom?
Natalie
I have a son and his family involved with HRM and have tried and continues to try and convert my husband and I. I read a lot and came across your site and am very appreciative of clarifying a number of things. I pray for my son and his family continuously but after listening to the many comments my heart breaks, not only for them but my son and his family also I guess I need to step up my praying. Thank you once again for your insight into the scriptures.
R. L. Solberg
Thank you, Natalie. It means a lot to me that my work has been helpful to you. I’m sorry for what you’re going through! I know how frustrating it is. Jesus taught us that persistent prayer is powerful. And how much more, I imagine, the prayers of a mother. “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly” (Luke 18:7-8a) We can trust that, even when things are frustrating or feel hopeless or stalled out, God is working out His will in His perfect timing. Blessings, Rob
Carol Simonton
Hi Rob,
I came across across a guy on tictok who is a Torah observer. At first it seemed interesting but then I noticed he separated himself from “Christians”. Then I noticed the snarky remarks to those who disagreed with him. On one of his videos, he was telling Christian’s that Heaven was closed, in an insulting and condescending manner. It was very upsetting. Apparently Matthew 5:17-20 is one of the NT scriptures they hold fast to. I can see why it is compelling for them. Can you explain this scripture for me? It does appear to be Torah-leaning.
Thank you for your help,
Carol
Timothy Grady
Thanks for clarifying these issues .
John 3:16 alone refutes all attempts to “come in some other way”.
If anything else were a NECESSARY condition of Everlasting Life than simple childlike faith in Jesus for it , then it would NECESSARILY have to be in John 3:16 – and in every conceivable Evangelistic/Justification before God/Everlasting Life passage .
Yet , this is precisely what we do not find .
Jay
Read past John 3:16 until John 3:21. These verses are all connected and continue the train of thought. I’ll post John 3:20-21
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
What is light defined as in the Bible?
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; And reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
What about whoever loves by the truth?
Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth
Just using scripture to define scripture. I only showing Bible truth.
Revelation 14:12 – Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Both commandments and faith are important
Revelation 22:14 – Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
What did Messiah say himself?
Matthew 5:17-18 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
He said he didn’t come to abolish the law or the prophets. He even goes on to further explain that until heaven and earth disappear then nothing from the law will disappear. We are still awaiting his second coming. Not everything had been accomplished. I come only in love and show only what the Bible says. Please just look at both sides of the argument before jumping to conclusions.
R. L. Solberg
Amen, Jay! And what’s interesting is the way we keep God’s commandments under the New Covenant is not the same way they were kept under Moses. For example, under Moses, we kept God’s commandments by bringing our animal sacrifices to the temple. Under the New Covenant, we obey Him by presenting our bodies “as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is our spiritual worship.” (Rom 12:). “For the one who loves another has fulfilled the law” (Rom 13:8b).
And when you read Matt 5:17-18, don’t forget to read what Yeshua said about that statement after He was resurrected in Luke 24:44-48. Jesus fulfilled the law and His disciples were witnesses to it!
Shalom,
Rob
Jay
Thank you for your reply brother. I am not going to turn you to see the fullness of the scripture but hopefully I can show to others that are viewing that there is scripture that shows these law are eternal. We serve an eternal God and he gives us eternal commands to follow him. He does not change.
Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Psalm 119:160
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
Exodus 31:16
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
The word fulfill is used out of context a lot and we can look at the original meaning in Greek. Fulfil below has other meanings and even if you use it to mean finish, its a period or task. He completed his tasks, he made full the prophecy that was written about him for his first coming.
Strong’s G4137 – plēroō
πληρόω plēróō, play-ro’-o; from G4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:—accomplish, × after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Below is a few examples of prophecies not completed including Abraham possessing the law for an everlasting possession, resurrected bodies to live forever, law will be in us and everyone will know the true God. Also remove wicked, detestable things and all its abominations.
Genesis 17:7-8
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Isa 66:22-23
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed;
the offspring of the wicked will perish.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Psalm 40:8
I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
Proverbs 25:5
Take away the wicked from before the king, And his throne will be established in righteousness.
Ezekiel 11:17-20
17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
His laws he gave us are eternal laws and are perfect at converting the soul to righteous. I am a testimony to this and here to show that his laws are a blessing!
Psalm 19:7
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Love you all as brothers or sisters in Messiah.
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, Jay. You and I agree that the Law of God is eternal, that we serve an eternal God who does not change, and that He gives us eternal commands to follow him. The Law God gave through Moses was holy, righteous, and good, (Rom 7:12), but it was not intended to last forever (Gal 3:24-25). The unchanging, eternal Law of God was expressed differently under Moses than under Yeshua. Here’s a short video I made that explains what I mean: The Unchanging Law of God.
Do you disagree that some things have changed under the New Covenant because of the work of Christ? I don’t imagine you sacrifice animals to atone for your sin, do you? If you follow Messiah, you know that He fulfilled those commandments by becoming our sacrifice once for all.
“And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” (Heb 10:11-13).
Blessings,
Rob
Jay
Brother I am not your enemy nor is anyone else that professes the Messiah. We are wrestle against wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12). What I am putting forward is that there was a great awakening and a second awakening in our history. History cannot fully explain it but the awakening pointed out that the churches were not following the scripture. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I decided to go to Christian non denominational as an adult. The Protestant movements started in the 1500 created many different denominations. However these denominations all are about the same now. They lost their identity and why they protested in the first place. I believe we are in a current awakening and seeing that our churches don’t teach what the Bible says. Just like the great awakening it is starting many different “denominations” within the movement however people are trying to return to what the Bible says.
The Messiah is our high priest (Hebrews 4:14-16). The problem was never the laws or instructions, it was people. The priest kept getting corrupted and would sacrifice to false gods. Christ was prophesied to be our high priest (Zechariah 6:12-13) which puts us under a new priesthood. The commandments for priest and what priest were suppose to do has been fulfilled by Messiah. So no there is no sacrifice like you pointed out.
However Leviticus 23 feast and sabbath are not under the priesthood and still apply to us. “And I gave them my Sabbath days of rest as a sign between them and me. It was to remind them that I am the LORD, who had set them apart to be holy” (Ezekiel 20:12). By worshipping on the sabbath we are saying that we worship the God that created heaven and earth in 7 days.
There is Antichrist spirits in this world (1 John 4:3). The enemy has been at work for 2000 years and his goal is to separate us from the Most High. Evolution, age of the earth, SUNday worship, “holidays”, distractions from reading the Bible, and many other ways the enemy attacks us. Polls show 11 percent of Americans read the Bible daily. If you look at the origins of the “holidays” celebrated today in our society it is disturbing. There are few that enter into the kingdom and there is unsound teaching (Matthew 7:22), (Matthew 7:13), (2 Timothy 4:3). Christ was at odds with the priests and teachers at his time. However he did say to do what is taught by Moses (Matthew 23:2). He kept referring to Moses and even stood beside Moses (Matthew 8:4) (John 5:46) (Matthew 17:1-3). I just pray that people seek out the truth through the Bible and awaken that we might be getting mislead by “religions”. There is a lukewarm church shown to us in scripture called Church in Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22). There was a council of laodicea (ad 336) transferred the sabbath from saturday to sunday. There is also a church in Smyrna there are people that claim they are jews but are not (Revelation 2:8-9). This is not my own words, it’s written in scripture. I just believe that we should do Bible studies with small groups of people because Christ will be with them (Matthew 18:20).
Once again I am not your enemy or any other professing Christian. I just am pointing out things that are written in the Bible but not practiced. I love God and want to do everything I can to show that I obey him. I might be overshooting and overachieving but I fear God (Proverbs 1:7). I fear “the One who can destroy both soul and body” (Matthew 10:28).
I bless you.
R. L. Solberg
Absolutely, Jay. I do not consider you an enemy. I agree with you about the state of biblical literacy in the modern church. And I share your desire to live a life that is pleasing to God.
It’s important to note that the feasts given in Leviticus 23 were given to Israel as a nation. They were not given to the Gentiles. The Egyptians were never expected to keep Sukkot. The Babylonians were not required to observe Pesach. The Assyrians were not commanded to celebrate Yom Kippur. And no Gentile nation was ever expected to keep Shabbat. Unlike the moral commandments about murder, adultery, child sacrifice, greed, and so on, the Gentile nations were never judged for not keeping the feasts or Shabbat.
Christians began gathering on Sunday (the Lord’s Day) very early on. We have glimpses of it in the NT and direct attestations in the writings of the early church, in documents like the Didache, which is dated to the 1st century and may even have been written while some of the apostles were still alive. As holy as the given times were in the Torah, the timing of the events of Christ are no less divine. It is no accident that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week and that the church was born on the first day of the week when the Spirit came at Pentecost. These are of great relevance to the Christ-follower. During the early years of the church, the believers did maintain some of the Jewish traditions, such as the hours of prayer (Acts 3:1), and Saturday Shabbat. In fact, in the early decades, many Jewish believers in Yeshua kept Sabbath on the last day of the week and gathered with the rest of the church on the first day of the week. The gentile followers of Jesus who were never under the Mosaic Sabbath requirements felt no necessity to observe that custom. And as time went on, they moved away from the Mosaic calendar and developed their own pattern of worship as the Spirit taught them.
(Also, just an aside, if we want to make a point of the pagan origin of the name of SUNday, we need to also acknowledge the pagan origin of SATURNday.)
Blessings,
Rob
Jay
Brother I keep showing you scripture after scripture. The Bible including the New Testament never say the Sabbath changed. Yeshua was gone from the cave on Sunday. Meaning he already Arose on the Sabbath. Even if it was Sunday he never said this would change the Sabbath day. Once again Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Same thing with your video you sent. The Bible never said the principles is the Law of God. Bible never says that my underline principles won’t change but my laws will. I keep showing you Bible verse after Bible verse. You are giving me your interpretations and documentation by early church that was already falling away from the Bible.
Leviticus 24:22 says “You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.” This was always open for anyone that wanted to follow the one true God. The other nations didn’t follow the Laws but that doesn’t mean that they were commanded not to.
Deuteronomy 30 shows a prophecy that we would return to his commands and obey him. “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 30:1-2)
Yeshua preached the kingdom more than anything else while he walked on this earth. When he was first starting his ministry Jesus said this, “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent.” (Luke 4:43) We are waiting for the glorious day that his kingdom will come. Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15). This is one is the “gospels” the good news!
What will we do when his kingdom comes? We observe the feast days.
Zechariah 14:16 tells us “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”
The kingdom is called Jerusalem, Zion, or Israel. They are all the same thing talked about throughout the Bible. Galatians 3:28
Tells us that “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” If you are wanting to be part of his kingdom you are an Israelite. A kingdom has laws and they are given to us. Ezekiel 37:15-23 tells us about this one nation that will be ruled by 1 king. Romans 11:11-24 explains to us that we are grafted into Israel.
Saturday is based off of a pagan god of the Romans. But Sabbath being created by God came first at creation. It being written down in the Bible came first before Rome was even an empire. Almost every other language has its name based off the sabbath. Let’s take Spanish for example “sábado”. This just shows how twisted our whole culture has become like I’ve been saying. We refer the planets after pagan gods. We celebrate pagan holidays. We worship on a pagan day of SUNday. People are just wanting to do what the Bible says not what the world teaches.
R. L. Solberg
Brother, Jay!
You wrote, “Yeshua was gone from the cave on Sunday. Meaning he already arose on the Sabbath.” I agree with you that Scripture clearly indicates the tomb was discovered empty early on a Sunday morning. But it offers no reason to think Jesus had actually been raised from the dead the previous day. In fact, that idea seems highly unlikely because if Yeshua rose on Shabbat but wasn’t discovered until the next day it would introduce a great deal of confusion. Jesus told His disciples,
When Yeshua spoke of being raised “on the third day,” was He referring to the day He would actually rise, or the day His disciples would learn that He had risen? If Jesus was raised on Shabbat, and that was the third day, then His followers did not learn of it until the fourth day. And the New Testament says nothing about a fourth day. In fact, the apostle Peter said,
Alternately, if the “third day” was intended to refer to the day Yeshua would be discovered alive, then He was actually resurrected on the second day. And the New Testament says nothing about a second day, either. In fact, it says,
Shalom,
Rob
Gideon
I think we often get lost in a world of labels, separation, selfish groups and forget that Ephesians 4:1-6 tells us that there is only “One body, One Faith, One Lord and One God”. There is no such thing as a Gentile Body, a Jewish Body, a Babylonian Body — but One Body.
You mention Egyptians and Babylonians as markers for gentiles, but we often forget that anyone who wanted to pledge their allegiance and faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, did so by JOINING His people (One body, One Faith, One Lord, One God).
God called Abraham out of a pagan world of gentiles and from his seed created a nation to be a light to the nations. Abraham the father of our Faith (Galatians 3/ Romans 4) is part of that One Body. Moses is part of One Body. Ruth is part of that One Body. David is part of that One Body. Daniel is part of that One Body. John the Immerser is part of that One Body. The repentant thief on the cross is part of that One Body. Paul is part of that One Body. Gentile believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are part of that One Body.
Most of the arguments in the above articles and many of the comments, come as a result of a man-made dichotomy created within that One Body— Gentile and Jewish. We will always go around in circles of man-made inventions until we first agree with the Scriptures that there is One body, One People, One Faith, One Lord, One Kingdom, One King and One God.
Once that is firmly established, we can easily discuss what the Instructions given to His Body/People/Kingdom are and how we apply them.
Anonymous
Excellent article, I grew up in this movement but left early on, it never sat right with me. The attitudes and division that you describe is down to a t of what I saw. The way verses are twisted to divide families breaks my heart. Like you have said not everyone does this, but it is very prevalent.
I still have family heavily rooted in this movement too and constantly pray the awake from this.
One fundamental issue I have with the movement is the picking and choosing on what is fulfilled and what isn’t.
Some will wear tassels (Tzitzit) many won’t saying the outpouring of the spirit fulfilled this. Essentially no one ( I hope ) is sacrificing animals to keep the feast days even though if they want to keep them according to the old testament this is a requirement. So really they choose convenient things to be fulfilled and others impose with an iron fist.
I could ramble on for way too long with stories, but in short this article was nice to find this morning, easily articulates many of the pitfalls. I pray more come away from the burden of man and carry God’s light yoke.
Brigitte Rosales
How do you reconcile the Zechariah 14 prophecy that we’re all going to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles? Should we at least do that?
Angela G.
Great article! Hebrew roots is a slippery slope because once you start with one aspect, it’s a slide into full legalism and all the pride or despair that comes from following or not following faithfully. I wrote a blog a couple years ago that compares it to my friends’ hobby of dumpster diving at grocery stores. https://nolongerlukewarm.com/2019/12/01/hebrew-roots-movement-an-analogy-of-priorities/
IMS
Excellently thought out and biblically precise!
Angela G.
Thank you! To God be the glory. God bless you!
R. L. Solberg
Thank you, Angela!
Sad wife
This so articulates my experience. I sit here wanting to cry….my husband started out with not celebrating Christmas, worshipping on Saturday, etc. He now treats me with contempt, has denied the Trinity, and our family has suffered so much! I don’t want to lump everyone into the same category, but I am very suspicious of people who talk of keeping Torah. I think it is the tip of the iceberg. Btw I stopped putting up a tree, etc.and have tried to be respectful, but I experience no unity in our marriage. It has been very sad for my children and I. But praise Yahweh I have had to dig into Scripture like never before and am more rooted in truth. God is good and this will end in glorifying Him.
Lorrie
I’m so sorry, Angela. It is a slippery slope.
I pray he realizes that he cannot keep the law and ceremonies as prescribed in the covenant made to Israel. That”s the key. It was never made for you and me.
Lifting your husband and your family in prayer. Continue to be grace filled and forgiving. That will overcome the legalism of the movement.
Brad
It seems to me Scripture says that those who believe in Yeshua are grafted in to Israel and become partakers with them in the covenan promises and responsibilities.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ric Joyner
Brad, how far into the Hebrew Roots are you? When talking about Hebrew Roots most people in these groups respond the way you do with similar talking points. If you are not far into it I would encourage you to get Professor Solberg’s book. I was drawn into this as Gentile in Messianic Judaism and because we were committed to studying the bible to live a praiseworthy life to God, He was able to avoid this trap and false presentation of the Gospel. Hope you do well. Professor Solberg’s book is a must read and at least get it so you can get another point of view. May the Lord bless you as you learn to live praiseworthy to Him.
Brad Snyder
Thanks Rick for your concern. I don’t actually consider my self as part of the Hebrew Roots Movement or any other movement or religion. I consider religion to be a man made thing. I have been reading and studying the Word of Yahweh since 2009. When asked what religion I am, which happens frequently, I usually reply ” I am a follower of the way”. Since Yeshua is The Way then that means I follow his teaching and example. So what he did, said, and taught is my guideline. I have not encountered any of his words that would lead me to believe I should live by any other guidelines than what he used which was his Father’s commands.
As far as the Hebrew Roots I have learned a lot about the problems inherent in the translations from Hebrew and Greek to English so any argument that relies solely on English wording I find lacking.
I hope you and yours are blessed and continue in Yahweh’s graces.
Ric Joyner
Blessings to you as well. Brad but how would a follower of the way live their life out in a practical day to day? To your point religion is indeed void if the Holy Spirit’s regeneration power is not present in the believer. To your other point we do have manuscripts from Greek or Hebrew are pretty defined today especially with 25,000 manuscripts that can be cross referenced. We know minute details of changes and thus can assess if a translation is off. NASB95, ESV, KJV are all outstanding. But I am interested if you are attempting to keep Torah as part of your daily life and would interested in how you do that since there is no temple? Thank you Brad for engaging.
Brad Snyder
Well Rick in answer to your question about keeping Torah in my daily walk. According to some counts there are 613 commandments in scripture. I don’t know personally because I have never tried to count myself. Also as you pointed out there are some that cannot be kept because of no physical temple in existence. There were always many commandments that did not apply to people like me. I can’t keep commands for women. Or Levites. Or shop keepers. Or soldiers. But there are also many that are across the board and timeless. Those I do my best to keep. The first ten given at Mt Sinia for example. But others as well that infource the broad ideas of how we are to treat our fellow humans. I keep the Sabbath. I observe the Scriptural feast days to the best of my ability. With Yeshua as our High Priest and our lives ,Or how we live I should say, as our sacrifices then the physical temple is not really a hindrance to keeping Torah as Yeshua Messiah taught. True Torah keeping is from the heart as a way of life not checking off lists as the Pharasees tried to make it.
I count many blessings in my life because I do my best to keep the parts of Torah that I can . Then I thank Yahweh every day for the blessing of his son and sacrifice for us. I ask Abba to please apply that sacrifice to me and my sin.
If the commandments were no longer in effect then we could not sin. In 1John it says sin is breaking the commandments. 1John says we decieve ourselves if we think we don’t sin. So if we need a sacrifice for our sin and Yeshua is that sacrifice then sin is still possible which would mean the commandments are still in effect.
As a way of living our best life nothing compares to following Yahweh’s Word. So that is what I attempt to do and thank him for his mercy in the times I fall short. Which is quite often.
Ric Joyner
Brad, thanks for responding. I have a few questions. Do not feel as though I am demanding for you to answer these are survey only. How long have you been in the attempt to keep Torah? Do you believe it is a requirement for all Christians? If so do you believe the “church” has failed in this area? And if so is their salvation in peril as some HR believe? Are you Jewish? Assuming no and if not how do you know how to keep Shabbos? Some Torah keepers go to Judaism to learn how do you? Thanks Brad
Brad Snyder
Well Rick let me see if I can answer your questions. I have been trying to live my life according to scriptural precepts sense Sept 2009. I believe Scripture tells us Yahweh expects everyone who says they are his to keep his commandments. Exo 20 6, Deut 7 9, John 14 5, John 15 10, 1John 2 3&4, Rev 12 17, 14 12, and 22 14. Yes the “church” has gone after traditions and not the Word of Yahweh. Salvation is something only Yahweh gives or takes away. I have no authority to say. I think Scripture is clear though that there are rewards for those who do keep the commandments. At the end of this earth when we stand before the judgment seat we are judged on our works even if our name is in the book of life. There has to be a standard for righteous judgment to occur. I don’t believe we will be judged according to religion but according to the standards set for us in the Word. What exactly will be the results of that judging I don’t know. If we are already saved what else is there. I do see a number of references in Scripture to rewards. Psa 19 11, 58 11, Mat 5 12, 16 27, 2John 1 8, Rev 22 12.
No I am not Jewish. 😊 At least not that I know of. It is hard to believe that each of us does not have some Hebrew blood in him. Being the Israelites were scattered around the world 2500 years ago the odds are we have an ancestor from at least one of the tribes. The term Jew or Jewish refers to the people living in the land of Judea during biblical times. That term does not cover all the tribes as well as Hebrew or Israelite.
In Yeshua’s ministry he makes quite a few references to how to keep Sabbath as well as many other Scriptures. One thing he never did was dispute the timing that was being used. So by knowing how the day was marked in the first century we can use the same timing today. Many of the rituals that are used by Sabbath keepers are man-made traditions and not of the Father. There are a number of very good descriptions in Scripture about how to act on His day.
I personally try to plan my week around the Sabbath so I do not need to do anything I could have done any other day to set the day apart. Then I rest, and spend time in the Word, and if the opertunity presents itself I fellowship with others. The main thing is to make the day different that all the others in honor of Yahweh having set it apart at creation.
I hope I have helped you understand my personal way of keeping faith with Yahweh and showing him I am his. Otherwise I just seek to be a servant until he comes and sets up his government here on earth.
Blessings my friend and brother in Yahweh
Ric Joyner
Brad thank you so much for this. One last question. What biblical study training do you have or are willing to share? The reason I ask this is I was saved and then immediately became entangled in the Charismatic movement. For nearly 18 or more years I went to churches and not one of them taught me biblical study principles. There are proper methodologies that are crucial to approach God’s word. Any method chosen should start with a focus that Christ is the center of the entire word of God, Is God and went to the cross willingly and as God was sinless. This allowed Him to say it is finished for all the world’s sin if people believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus today we approach God’s word from this perspective: It is His world, His rules and He does things with different groups of people throughout time. This is evident in all of scripture. Knowing this causes us to want to study the word of God to live praiseworthy to God finding His plans and purposes. This concept was given to me by Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org. It changed our lives. As we study scripture to live a praiseworthy life it caused us to question everything we were taught including Charismatic and Messianic Judaism as well as other thought programs. We realized we were just pewsitters being indoctrinated and we let it happen. We keep what is Christ and ask the Holy Spirit to teach us the rest. This is what led us away from messianic Judaism (nothing against the Jewish people even those saved) and even Hebrew Roots. But if you are willing to share your biblical training background I would be grateful. Again if you don’t wish to I totally understand.
Brad Snyder
Rick I kinda have to smile at the thought that I have a biblical training program of some sort. I have looked at a few but usually find them to be designed to lead a person to the same conclusions as the author. Which I often see things differently. Mostly I have just read and read and then read some more. Reading Scripture cover to cover at least once each year for most of my changed life. While doing that I began to see connections so I started taking notes and that became a book I call “My Little Book Of Scripture Verses By Subject Matter”. It is something I use for my own reference. I also made a Scriprure comparison book for myself that compares as many as 8 different versions of the Bible side by side. I think I have 4 or 5 books of Scripture represented in it. I did a small book of misstranslations or What I call bad word choices in scripture also for my reference. I currently use NASB study Bible but have gone through it at least three times cover to cover changing things like “The Lord” to Yahweh and “God ” to Elohim. I do this just because I like the way it reads and I feel it’s more accurate. I have written in many of my own verse links over the several years I have been using it. All of these things and others that I do or have done grew out of my reading and answering questions put to me by others. I have always said I learn more from those who disagree with me than those who agree. Some of my best study/research was to prove my own opinions right and often had the opposite effect. 🤪 I love to talk Scripture any time anywhere with anybody but I won’t argue. Been there done that and it’s not something I am proud of in my past. If someone has a different viewpoint than me I wanna hear it. But I will challenge them to shoe me in Scripture. With the resources I have created for myself I can quickly show where I get my beliefs from and then we can compare. Father Yahweh has taken a life long reading habit and guided me to use it for his purposes and for my growth in his word. All that being said I have no planned study habits other than read and share thoughts with people who also read The Word.
If you would like to share more maybe we should do so in a different manner than this comment section. I don’t want to bother others who may now be getting as much out of this as we seem to be.
If you wish my email is snidlywiplash54@gmail.com
Hopefully others will respect that this is for the benefit of Scripture discussion and not flood me with spam.
Blessings.
Ric Joyner
Brad thanks for your email. I will send an email as a test so you can see what we are doing. All of my info is on there. A bible study program is not what I am talking about. There are several scientific, or proper approaches to scripture that are helpful in studying scripture. Most people “study” the bible by a “devotional” approach. Dr. Korman shows that understanding, grammar, culture and who it is written to and why is very important. The types of study that exist currently are: Inductive bible study: Observe, Interpret, Apply. (Dallas Theo Seminary pushes this). The Jewish sages (as opposed to the rabbis) used PARDES exegesis. You will need to look it up or perhaps you already have seen it. Baruch does not like this. Exegesis is taking out of the text versus eisegesis, putting our ideas into the text. Most HBR people and charismatics are here. They insert their own pre-set thoughts into the text. There is then the Literal Historical Grammatical approach with dispensation thrown in which is another approach of “rightly dividing the word” as Paul said. All of these approaches have benefits but are missing a beginning method. A heart approach. That is looking in scripture for how to respond to God’s plans and purposes to live praiseworthy to him. Much error has come from eisegesis and a lack of knowledge of biblical study approaches. That is our ministry at biblestudycompany.com which is free to use. I also love talking about this stuff.
Brad Snyder
Sounds good I will see you on email. It’s been a pleasure and look forward to more discussion.
Michelle Hand
As a Torah observant Christian myself, I just want to thank you for handling this topic with so much thought and respect. I’ve read/watched a few people rebutting our movement and they’re not a whole lot kinder about it than we’re (sadly) often known to be. I do disagree with your first point, and I’ve done my study and research, but I don’t really want to argue about it. Your second and third points are sadly 99% accurate in most cases. It’s something I’ve been pondering a lot lately. Our movement is very passionate about truth, and that’s something I’ve enjoyed – getting to dig deep into scripture with people without being told it’s wrong to want to understand obscure passages and search out answers to questions. But, as you obviously know, we get out of balance and in our pursuit of truth often forget to love our neighbor. Jesus told the Pharisees that they tithed mint and dill and cumin and forgot the weightier matters of the law – justice and mercy. That’s convicting. I love the Torah community, but we need to get better about that.
I think one of the problems is that, because the Torah movement is exploding so quickly, many of the people you’re going to interact with might still be in their first couple years of studying the law. They (we) haven’t all learned maturity and balance and simple communication skills to avoid being total jerks to those around us.
Another issue is that people in general don’t often question their beliefs as long as they’ve got a smooth relationship with their church. So many of us who have come to the conclusion that the law applies today have done so by reading and studying on our own after being somewhat disillusioned by bad experiences in the mainstream church. Those that haven’t forgiven and made peace with the past might take out their anger via the Torah on mainstream Christians. That’s obviously not right or fair.
For whatever it’s worth, I’m trying to live above this stereotype. My family is trying. Our Torah observant congregation is struggling but also trying, with varying levels of success depending on the individual and situation.
As a side note, I do know of situations where the hurt and divisiveness is coming from the other side (though admittedly, that’s not as common). I’ve interacted with Torah observant Christians who wanted to stay in their mainstream churches to serve and not cause division but were asked to leave. In my personal experience, I’ve had people close to me continue to attack my beliefs after I asked that we simply agree to disagree and move forward. It doesn’t sound like you’re that type, but just something I wanted to put out there for you to be aware of.
I would love to see mainstream and Torah keeping congregations and individuals able to work through the disagreement and live in peace. At the end of the day, yes, I think keeping the Sabbath that God set up is important – but I also recognize that there are absolutely things that Torah keepers can learn from other Christians, that you all are doing much better than we are. Thanks for the reminder, and again, I appreciate the respectful tone you took in doing so.
Ric Joyner
Michelle this is well written and very thoughtful. I was almost snared into this movement because so many Torah Keepers go to Messianic Jewish synagogues that are mostly gentiles anyway. But that is for another story. What I think is wrong with the Torah keeping groups is the huge mistake in bible study methods. The word Torah is instruction which is the number one point brought up by them. But if so why don’t they follow the Apostles and Jesus instructions? Why do they need to bring the Torah for the land into the mix? This is truly perplexing. But why do TKs assume that the word Torah (First 5 books of Moses) applies to us under the beginnings of the new covenant? The word Torah cannot be imported from the Old Testament to the New Testament for many many reasons. And this is where the flaw starts. What do I mean? First Christ said, as the same God Who stood on Mt Sinai about the 10 statements was standing on Mt of Beatitudes teaching a whole different way to see the Torah. (compare ex 20 beginning to Matthew 5 beginning) Christ went after the root of sin which starts in the heart not what we do. The doing is an action out of the heart. Jesus told us if we love Him we will keep his commandments. Here is where the TKs make another big mistake by importing the Torah from the OT into the NT. Jesus and the disciples gave us new commands which some scholars say are 1000-1500 GREEK IMPERATIVES. Here is an example. With Christ, Peter, James and John on the MT of transfiguration Jesus revealed Who He was. But Moses and Elijah were there. A cloud descended (can we presume a parallel from Ex 20?) and God the Father said “this is my beloved son LISTEN TO HIM”. That is a Greek imperative that is a command. Just like the Torah. That is pretty clear that we were to leave the Law of Moses and the Prophets (we can still learn spiritual lessons from them) to the Laws that Christ and the Apostles gave us in the Greek Imperatives (acts 2:42) and NOW LISTEN TO HIM. This is a giant misunderstanding and I believe the enemy uses this misstep and uses people who love God to arrive at an error that can affect someone’s salvation. Here is how. How many Torah groups are doing the great commission (Matthew 28:16-18)? How many are preaching salvation as Christ showed Paul in acts 26:16-18? But they are preaching to keep the law of Moses which Galatians forbids. But we are to observe all that “I command you” because to keep the law of Moses requires a temple and there isn’t one. HE LIVES IN US. If we studied the Greek Imperatives that the Christ and the Apostles give us we will be doing this all of our life AND DOING GOD’s WILL from Mt Transfiguration. The love for God’s word is fantastic in the TK groups but I wish they had teachers that could teach proper biblical study methods on how to live praiseworthy to God instead of the same talking points which is very frustrating. TKs/HRs tend to think all Christians are dumb to the word of God and the weird part is they miss so much of what they should know. If we were to keep the law of Moses why did Christ come for the Jews and for Gentiles? That is basic logic. That is why keeping Torah nullifies the gospel. Can we see that Paul said let people be accursed that teach this? Strong language. Let us love Christ under the Law of Christ and obey His commandments He gave us by His apostles (Acts 2:42) May you be blessed and your post was outstanding. No condemnation from me anywhere. Ps didn’t Jesus say you can’t poor new wine into old wine skins? BTW I have studied HR, TKs and Judaism extensively. One of my closets friends is Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org and he agrees with me. We died to the law as Paul said in Romans.
Jay
I challenge you and anyone else that reads this comment. Look read the article and read the comments. This article is a direct attack at peoples Faith. Check peoples fruits in these comments. Many of us have come on to just defend our Faith. The article claims that people in our movement are the divisive ones. I agree with Michelle that there are those among us that are unfruitful. I would gander that most are babes in the Faith that haven’t learned to walk it out fully yet. We are all on a walk with Jesus and we all have things to work on.
Michelle Just came to say that we all have things to learn and can learn from eachother. Again I agree with Michelle that there are many of us that are still in the churches. It’s not us that are wanting to separate from the body of Christians. It’s the Christian’s that are pushing us out. I’ve been called many things by Christians but mostly told I am not a Christian. Because I don’t celebrate Christmas and want to uphold the Old Testament Laws this somehow makes me a non-Christian.
Michelle was saying that we can come together with what we have in common. We have so much more in common than our differences.
Your words:
“Can we see that Paul said let people be accursed that teach this? Strong language.”
Comments like this are unfruitful. If you believe we are accursed by God then let us be accursed. How does throwing unfruitful words and condemning us do any good?Shouldnt we pray for others and help them along and not just tell them they are accursed? What was the conclusion of Paul being tried?
Acts 5:38-39
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
These are wise words instead of throwing strong language around.
Your words:
“No condemnation from me anywhere. Ps didn’t Jesus say you can’t poor new wine into old wine skins? ”
You say a comment like this after calling us accursed. How can you claim no condemnation? See what some Christian’s don’t see is that you are attacking someone else’s faith. You spent the whole comment speaking against the Torah which we uphold. It’s like if someone came out to you and directly spoke against Jesus. If they were saying Jesus was fake and it’s all lies. Laugh at us because we still believe in the Bible and that Rome made it all up to control us. See all of us Christian’s would take offense to this also and want to help instruct them on our faith.
Your words:
“Here is how. How many Torah groups are doing the great commission (Matthew 28:16-18)? How many are preaching salvation as Christ showed Paul in acts 26:16-18? But they are preaching to keep the law of Moses which Galatians forbids.”
Your making this claim after lumping us in Messianic Jews. Wouldn’t Jews knowing our Savior be a indication that our movement is doing the great commission? Your making a general claim that can be applied to all Christian’s. How many Christian’s are preaching salvation? How many are going out and outreaching to those that are not Christians? Sure there are street preachers that do this but there are street preachers that are doing this also in our movement. Sure we don’t have a church or building. But just putting a building up is not what was commissioned. This is a passive way to reach out. There are those of us that are doing missions and reaching out to other nations. This is a false claim, we teach about all of our Faith. Jesus is still and always will be the foundation of our Faith.
I will tell you my own experience. I came to Torah Observant through reading the Bible myself. I am in no way claiming Christian’s don’t read their Bible either, just telling my story. When I started asking questions and seeking answers did others start separating themselves from me. By my own family was my faith attack. I kept defending myself and my stance with the Bible. But anytime I defended myself my family saw it as I was attacking them. For instance I don’t eat pork and consider it unclean. Then verses were thrown and me. I replied with verses then was told I am condemning them to Hell. I can do the same thing with you now. I can counter your points with the Bible but you would consider it as an attack against your believes and faith. Even though you started throwing the Sword around first after Michelle had a beautiful comment. But I digress on all of this.
I just challenge anyone reading this to do your own research. Test all things. See both sides of the arguments. Ric I know you said you did your own research and have come to your own conclusion. That is all we are asking is that everyone study both sides of the argument before dismissing it. Don’t rely on Ric studies or mine. Walk your own salvation out with fear and trembling.
Love and bless you all.
Michelle Hand
Ric, Thank you for your response. I’ll admit this isn’t the ideal forum to debate the specifics of these doctrines. If you’d like to continue the conversation in more detail feel free to look up myself and my husband Erik Hand on Facebook. We can set up a group chat that would be easier to monitor (I don’t check my email much).
In this forum I won’t argue doctrine, although I’m more than happy to dig into the chapter and verse specifics in a group chat. But I will address some of the differences between TO and mainstream Christianity that came up in your comment, because I think they are relevant to the issue of unity and might benefit others reading this as well.
I think these types of conversations are easier to have and unity easier to maintain when we try to understand where one another is coming from. What you call a mistake in Bible study methods (and truthfully, I would’ve agreed with you a few years ago) is not a mistake in the sense that we haven’t thought it through. We (I’ll take the risk of speaking for the movement, based on the majority of people I’ve interacted with, although there is a huge amount of diversity in it) simply look at it like this: books should be read from back to front and not the other way around. I spent almost 33 years in mainstream churches and did 6 years of traveling ministry with my family where we interacted with almost every denomination and non denomination. Maybe there are exceptions, but in my experience, new believers were taught to start with John or Romans, not Genesis. That’s reading back to front and is bound to result in misunderstandings. Keep in mind that Jesus and Paul probably would’ve had most or all of the Torah memorized as would most of Jesus’ audience and some of Paul’s. That’s a lot of important context that’s often being missed on our end.
Most TO Christians I know do not believe the new covenant is yet fully in play – and when it is, it will be a renewal of the Mosaic covenant. So for the sake of productive discussion it may be helpful to keep that in mind.
We believe that Jesus interpreted the existing Torah rather than adding to it. Love your neighbor and love God, for example, weren’t new, and He gave insight into how to walk that out. He was the living Word of God, after all. As such we do uphold the teachings of the New Testament (although some of us prefer not to call it that, as we don’t believe Jesus took a radical departure from what His Father had been saying for thousands of years – and couldn’t, because God doesn’t change).
I’m not sure if you’re conflating us with non-messianic Judaism in your point about listening to Jesus, because we do listen to Jesus. Including the part where He said heaven and earth would pass away before the law did. We do view His teachings from a different vantage point than mainstream believers, however.
How many TO Christians are fulfilling the great commission? Probably not enough. Which is one of the things we can look to you in the mainstream church as an example and learn from.
However, one thing the mainstream church could possibly learn from us would be taking the time to ask: what are you winning people to? It depends on the individual/group/denomination for sure, but a mistake I’ve seen far too often in mainstream is that parts of the truth will be sacrificed in the name of “reaching people”. Maybe that’s a lopsided accusation, as the ones who are doing this the most are the huge mega churches, and there are a lot of tiny mainstream churches around the world that refuse to compromise on the truth, as they know it to be. As a result, fewer people are interested, no matter what creative methods are used for outreach. And these churches may in a sense be accused of failing the Great commission too, but are they? Likewise, most TO people I know can be accused of a lot of things, but being silent about our beliefs is usually not one of them. Are we effective? Not always, and as I’ve readily confessed, that is at times our fault. But the other half of that is that we live in a world that is increasingly disinterested in biblical truth. But that doesn’t stop many of us from trying to be the hands and feet of our Messiah in this world.
If that point surprises you (because of the stereotype that we’re all aggressive and rude), it might be because the more mature members of our movement may not immediately make it known that they are TO. The man who introduced my family to the scriptural support for keeping Torah, we knew for at least a year before he even mentioned it – and it was my husband who asked; the guy didn’t bring it up. I mean after spending time around him it was obvious something was different, but he is so involved in inner city outreach and music ministry and organizing almost all of the urban Christian musicians in our city that there was so much more to talk about than just that. So you might not know right away that you’re interacting with a mature TO believer. It’s possible you would first notice them for their integrity and service and find out they were TO after getting to know them.
As you pointed out, the TO movement does have a love for God’s word, and I think that’s something mainstream Christians could learn from us – even if you don’t agree with our doctrine. When I attended mainstream churches I had so much hunger to learn, and I quickly learned that most people’s interest didn’t go much past the gospel and the Great Commission – meaning, they had little interest in taking anyone deeper than the surface. I would ask questions after services and usually people would give me a sound bite, something I’d already heard in a sermon usually, and it wouldn’t address my question directly at all. Or they would tell me to focus on the central points of the gospel and not worry about it. But what if we’re not getting the full picture of the gospel because we’re ignoring some of the things that God has said? Every word of scripture is inspired and profitable for training in righteousness, but we’re ignoring 75% of it because we think it’s not about the gospel? It’s all about the gospel. So that thought isn’t necessarily directed at you, I don’t know you nor your Bible study habits. But it’s just something I observed in mainstream church that I think could be improved upon. I’ve been so refreshed to find people in the Torah movement who can say, “I don’t know, but I’d love to study that with you to find out.”
I agree with your point about wineskins. However, I would point out He didn’t say to forget wineskins entirely and just let the wine take its own shape. That would ruin the wine. You get a new wineskin which matures along with the wine and eventually will have something very similar to the original wineskin. That might horrify many in mainstream. I remember when I was in it I had very little respect for the law. We were taught to think of the law as almost a dirty word. When we read passages like Psalm 119 which extol God’s law, as the pastor was paraphrasing they would inevitably say “word” in place of “law”. Which gave me the mental image that somehow David was actually extolling the gospels and epistles, but that’s an anachronism. Keep in mind – even if you continue to believe the law doesn’t apply today – those are still things that God said at one point in time. They’re His words, just as much as anything in John or Romans. All of the OT prophets spent a lot of time exhorting people to repent and keep the law. And when they didn’t, God responded by exiling them from the land. So at least at that time you’d have to admit God’s law mattered to Him greatly. So even if mainstream believers don’t see it as relevant today, they ought to speak of it with the same honor they would give to the rest of scripture. “Law” isn’t a dirty word.
Blessings to you. I probably won’t be checking this frequently, so like I said, if you would like to continue the discussion, especially about doctrinal specifics, feel free to look up Erik and Michelle Hand on Facebook (separate profiles).
Ric Joyner
Hi Erik and Michelle,
I totally agree with you on talking… not on writing. The back to front reading is always appropriate in any book. The Bible however is a library of 66 books and 37-40 authors over 1500 years depending on the scholar. It is amazing that each book tells us theology and doctrine.
In my length of time in and around MJ and HBR I saw errors of the teachers after I learned to study properly. Now studying properly doesn’t make me an expert or that I can’t still impose my pov onto the text. Reading into the text is an issue in HBR and other groups.
Every Christian church I have been in is very open to Jewish things and understand the root of our faith in Christ. They may not practice Judaism because that essentially is MJ and HBR.
All of us will need to decide why Christ came? Was it to put gentiles anew under the OLD COV that israel could not keep or have we died with Christ by faith as Paul said in Romans? And did Christ give us new commands called Greek imperatives that will truly show Him we love Him? He did and as like Moses, He Himself gave us these new instructions in the Gospels and through His Apostles. If we were to keep the law of Moses why did He need to die for our sin? We are to study the entire bible and the Christian churches I attended do just that but not with a Jewish context. But they are open. I will see about connecting with you guys for a convo! Thanks for the invite.
Geneva Wilkerson
Hi! Great article! But…😇I’m always seeing teachers skirt issues around “ avoiding Torah observance in order to remain genuine in the faith”. one of those issues is Biblical traditions. If we are left to our own devices we must assimilate with whatever believers we fellowship with in order to be part of a body. Do you realize how much corruption is in the modern church today? I always considered God somewhat schizophrenic when it came to trusting in Him, especially when i was told by honorable and anointed non Torah based teachers & preachers, to dump the traditions OF the old testament. I have often said in the past, that whatever Biblical traditions you forsake will be replaced by something else. God had a good idea about maintaining the family unit and taking care of widows and orphans. BIBLICAL TRADITIONS! with helpful Jewish guides😇
ric joyner
Geneva is this in answer to my response? Or are you focused on engaging prof solberg?
Ric Joyner
Michelle, I read your extensive post. I did try to contact Erik on Messenger and nothing was returned. What I read from you is a ton of “we got this more than the church does” and little of your discussion (well written) did not deal with the false teaching of TOs that I addressed in my post. I was actually surprised with the excuse making. I will try another way. Have you seen the polygamy that is growing in this cult? Some Torah keepers will say the Torah does not prevent polygamy. If you are ok with this then no problem. However the model from Christ is one man and one woman. It is a picture of the church. This is what is so striking. Read the posts from other people on this site of other groups (it may not be yours) but soon could be that are breaking up families. I just had an exchange with Dr. Baruch Korman of loveisrael.org who is a rabbinically trained, a Jewish man who is a Christian lives in Israel and has a Ph.D. He said straight up. “Ric there is no such thing as Torah-Keeping not even orthodox Jews believe that. The orthodox Jews have an oral Torah they keep which is not the word of God. What baffles me is that Romans 3-8 Eph 2-4 and Galatians should deal a death blow to this false teaching. But somehow it does not. Why? Deception. May the Lord be with you and your family and I hope His Grace in our Lord Jesus Christ helps you see through this morass of bad doctrine. The TOs bible study methods are poor. They love the word but are more interested for the most part in the minutiae of Hebrew words, keeping festivals like Jews and falsely practicing Judaism.
Anonymous
Search Polygamy in this article. https://eliyah.com/marriage-divorce-remarriage/
Also, if we consider Yahushua’s admonition to get back to the way it was in the beginning, it wouldn’t be too difficult to see why many interpret them as outright forbidding polygamy. Yahushua wants us to get back to the way things were when there was one man, one woman producing a seed of Elohim. We should remember that there is about a 50/50 chance of a child being born a boy or a girl. For this reason, there is usually an equal number of men and women in society. In the United States, 49.12% of the population is male and 50.88% of the population is female (2002 data). If we lived in a society where there were significantly more women than men, I could see some legitimacy for a man having more than one wife rather than multitudes of women being sentenced to a life of celibacy. This was often the case in ancient times because of so many men dying in various wars. But if we live in a society where the number of men are nearly the same as the number of women, a man marrying one wife could potentially prevent another man from producing a seed of Elohim. It seems that these things should be taken into consideration as well.
I do realize that Yahushua was not outright condemning polygamy in Matthew 19 and related verses, so I would stop short of calling it a sin either way. But it is evident by His statements that unless a man understands the difference between adultery and polygamy, he could find himself in a “marriage” that he considers to be polygamous—but actually is adulterous in Yahweh’s eyes. His statements and the examples seen in scripture demonstrate the importance of a man not afflicting his first wife by taking on a second wife against her will. We are called to love our wives, not give them occasion for stumbling or afflict them.
William
Matthew 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until Heaven and Earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from Torah – not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvah and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and the P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven!”
So the BIG question. Has Heaven and Earth passed away, or are we still here? Last I knew, I’m still kickin’.
Now I not claiming to be a smart person but, that sounds pretty straight forward.
Also John 5:41-47 ” I don’t collect praise from men, but I do know you people – I know that you have no love for God in you! I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t accept me; if someone else comes in his own name, him you will accept. How can you trust? You’re busy collecting praise from each other, instead of seeking praise from God only. But don’t think that it is I who will be your accuser before the Father. Do you know who will accuse you? Moses, the very one you have counted on! For if you really believed Moses, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. But if you don’t believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
All this from the mouth of Jesus. The One you worship on Sunday. Speaking of that…. Look up the Council of Leodicea Canon 29. Are y’all sure that you are even worshipping the One true God? I would truly be saddened to hear the words “I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!
Now have newer things come into place? Absolutely! THEY’VE BEEN BUILT ON BETTER PROMISES, not a completely new Gospel. If that were so then God would be a liar. I think we can all agree that He’s definitely not! So please let’s stop competing to be the better “know it all” and TRUST in the One who does!
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, William! The BIG question is: has one iota or dot of the law changed? For example, are God’s people still required to sacrifice a bull and two goats on Yom Kippur for their sins? I’m not asking if that is happening, because, of course, it can’t happen without a temple. I’m asking if the law’s requirement for a blood sacrifice of sin every year is still in effect. Or has that requirement “passed from the law” because of the sacrifice of Jesus, which was “once for all” (Heb 10:10)?
Anonymous
Jeremiah 33:17 – For thus says YAHWEH: `David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18 – `nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’
Do you get that? In the same way David will never lack a man to sit on the throne, the Levites will never lack a man to “offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.”
As sure as Yahweh’s covenant with David that of his Seed every nation would look to Him as being a King– Yahushua is the Seed of David– in the same way, His covenant with Levi is solid. And, in fact, He says this:
Jeremiah 33:19 – And the word of YAHWEH came to Jeremiah, saying,
20 – Thus says YAHWEH: `If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season,
21 – `then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
Jeremiah 33:22 – `As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’
So, this is FOREVER, brothers. Put it this way: As long as day and night are happening, Levites will be His priests.
In fact, in the future times, it says:
Ezekiel 44:15 – But the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood, says the Master YAHWEH.
This is future. This has never happened. Read it– Ezekiel 40 to the end.
Ezekiel 44:16 – They shall enter My sanctuary, and they shall come near My table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge.
And so, Yahweh’s covenant with Levi still stands. It is just that the Law which had forbidden an outsider from coming and entering this temple has been set aside to allow for the Son of Judah, the priestly King, to enter in the holy of holies, take residence there, make intercession for us and rule on the earth.
And He does not need to enter that holy of holies once a year with some other blood. He enters that holy of holies with His own blood. And so, this covenant with Levi is not going anywhere.
https://eliyah.com/archives/the-book-of-hebrews-teaches-torah-law-observance-part-1-2013/
Can you call in to eliyah.com’s sabbath broadcast and talk with him one day?
Lorrie
Hi William,
Mankind is still kinkin’! Praising Him for that and am so grateful for Pastor Solberg’s biblical response to your question. Placing the Word in it’s timeline and noting the audience is important.
If I may make a suggestion to study the phrase “heaven and earth” throughout Scripture. Note it’s context relating to the OT system. God the Father tabernacled with His chosen people through the temple, priests and the Law. It was the heavenly realm on earth for those who followed.
Understanding that the meaning may be deeper than two locations, one spiritual and terrestrial, helped me a great deal.
Kyle
I think I will take God’s word over man’s traditions.
Revelation 21:1-4 (compare, these are only a few: Isaiah 57, 65-66, Ezekiel 37-48, Isaiah 25:6-9 ->1 Corth 15:25-27 -> Isaiah 35:10, 51:11
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Isaiah 65:17-19…Isaiah 66:17…Isaiah 66:22-24…Leviticus 19:33-34…Numbers 15:15-16…Deuteronomy 16:11-12…Ezekiel 47:21-23…Ephesians 2:11-13…Ephesians 3:6…Galatians 3:28-29
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Leah
****Dont follow the way of the world because that way leads to death and darkness, the law is light and love for all humanity and keeping the torah is not evil Nor wrong, thats why the Ruah Hakodesh was given to helps us walk in light, OR WHAT EVIL OR WRONG IS IN loving others and trying our best to obey the father and walk like the messiah?!
Your post is misleading and wrong
!!!!
R. L. Solberg
Yes! Paul illuminates the truth that love is at the core of the law. The love command—“love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18)—is at the heart of the law of Christ: “Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” (Gal 6:2; see also 1 Cor 9:20–21). James calls the command to love your neighbor as yourself the royal law: “If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing right” (James 2:8).
The law has always pointed to Jesus Christ: “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God” (Rom 10:4). The Law of Moses is something humans are incapable of keeping (Gal 3:10). We cannot meet the demands of the law in our own power (Gal 3:24; Rom 8:4; 10:4). Our Savior, the Lord Jesus, fulfilled the law perfectly and provided His righteousness in exchange for our sin (see Matt 5:17). (See this article.)
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Leah,
I pray you will not get sucked into the Torah Keeping Group. They are not focused on Christ as Rob nicely said. Jesus gave us a new covenant and gave Himself for our sin thus fulfilled the OC and said He came to fulfill. He gave us new commandments. He said in John 14:15 to follow those. He rolled up the OC including Torah into the new commandments. There were 613 in the Torah and Moses gave those. Christ came as God, the same God on Mt Sinai correct? If so then He prophesied through His prophets the Seed and the Messiah was to come. He came. He paid the sin debt all of us owed, both Jews and Gentiles. Now He told us to obey His commands if we love Him. He gave us 1642 Greek Imperatives. Those are commands. The Hebrew imperatives are the Torah. The New Covenant is what we should follow by the Holy Spirit given to us if we are born again. Will we take up our cross and follow Him as He said to do or Moses? Do not be duped from these people. Follow the Messiah the One Who has come! Do not be deceived.
Anonymous
I asked this many times and never got a reply. When Yahushua told us to repent, what are we repenting of if not disobeying Torah?
R. L. Solberg
We are to repent of our sin, Anonymous! And, as I’m sure you’re aware, sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses, because that would mean that Adam and Eve never sinned. In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom 5:13, see also Ga; 3:19).
Blessings, Rob
IMS
Sadly, I have only met two people in HRM/TO, that keep the summed up Law (Love God and Love People) the rest, don’t just fail, they sin in the way they treat people, thus breaking the whole Law…
Ric Joyner
Well said. And very true
Avram Yehoshua
You know, if we didn’t have Church History, which literally tells us that for the first 90 years AFTER the Resurrection, ALL Christians kept both the Sabbath and Passover (cf. 1st Cor. 5:6-8), your teaching, RL might make some sense. See my article The Lord’s Day–Sunday? Also, what do you do, how do you reconcile what Yeshua/Jesus says about Mosaic Law (Mt. 5:17-19), that He did NOT come to do away with the Law, and that it will last until there are no more Heavens and Earth, and that ANYONE who breaks the least of the commandments of Moses will be LEAST in His Kingdom, which Kingdom didn’t begin until AFTER the Resurrection, in Acts Two?
Does fulfill mean to do away with, as the Church teaches? Here’s what Jesus thought of His use of fulfill: “Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” (Luke 24:44 NKJV) He fulfilled what the Law speaks about a coming Messiah (e.g. Dt. 18:18-19), by just showing up. Of course, the Law and the Prophets speak of Him dying for us and healing Israel, etc. This is what fulfill means according to Jesus, and it doesn’t do away with the Law, which as Paul says, shows us what is sin (Romans 3:20b). The Law has its place in the life of every Christian; it’s just not the place of salvation, but once saved, does it matter if we sin (cf. Rom. 6:1-3f.). Torah is Paul’s holy Standard for what is sin and what God requires of every Christian (e.g. the Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel and the Mosaic Dietary laws).
Check out my book on Acts 15, which especially deals with Mosaic Law, the new Gentile Christian, and the four rules of James (v. 20). It’s The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21.
You might also be amused with my two-page Quiz: Take the Quiz! Five Quick Questions about the New Testament.
Let me know what you think, RL, AFTER you’ve at least read a few pages from my book, and after you’ve taken the Quiz.
Blessings from Above!
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The Seed of Abraham at http://www.seedofabraham.net
R. L. Solberg
Shalom, Avram!
The fact that many Christians, especially Jewish followers of Jesus, kept both the Sabbath and Passover does not conflict with my position on Hebrew Roots, which is that the Mosaic rituals, such as Sabbath, Torah feasts, kosher diet, circumcision, etc. are permitted but not required of Christ followers. I have not suggested that those things were abolished or forbidden or prohibited in any way. In fact, both Jesus and the authors of the NT seem to presume that Jewish followers of Jesus will go right on keeping them. So for followers of Jesus today who want to keep those rituals, go for it. But keep in mind that they do not make us any more righteous in the eyes of God. There’s not a single thing that we can do to add to the righteousness that is ours through faith in Jesus! So those Mosaic rituals, while permitted, are not required of Christians. And it’s when folks claim that those rituals are obligatory for all followers of Jesus, and that not doing them is sinful and disobedient, that’s when they veer into heresy and are challenging the sufficiency of Christ.
As for your question regarding Matt 5:17-20, you actually answered it yourself! In Matt 5, when Jesus says “until all has been accomplished” what is He talking about? The answer is right there in the passage you quoted from Luke 24. The resurrected Jesus said to His disciples: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled . . . You are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:44, 48). In other words, the things Jesus said He would accomplish He accomplished, and His disciples were witnesses to it! The law was fulfilled in the sense in which Jesus meant it in Matt 5.
Blessings, Rob
Ric Joyner
Rob,
I would go further than you did on the fulfillment. The Lord paid our sin debt under the Law for both Adam and Eve (sinless) and for those of us born under sin. He also fulfilled the Old Covenant law knowing there would be no temple. He also gave his followers @1642 new laws called Greek imperatives that Avram does not mention. He also fulfilled the TANAK because He came as prophesied. This comment from Avram is false: Snip>which literally tells us that for the first 90 years AFTER the Resurrection, ALL Christians kept both the Sabbath and Passover <unsnip. He uses ALL and that can't be proven. In fact, we begin to see people meeting on the Lord's day because it was the day the Lord was resurrected. Acts 20:17-FF. The church does not teach people how to break the law they teach people to obey the Law of Christ which is what Paul did. Torah groups teach people to keep Torah like Judaism. This is indeed as you said a heresy. It puts people under bondage to the "keeping of the torah" rather the spirit of the Torah which was evident in the passages laid out in Matthew 5. Rob thank you for your kind comment.
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
You wrote two replies and I’ll try and answer both of them here. Your concept of anyone, Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, being able to keep say, the 7th day Sabbath or Passover, is not correct because it’s built upon a false premise: that Christians don’t have to walk like Jesus did, because somehow, His death invalidated Mosaic Law for His followers, even though He states otherwise in many places, like Mt. 5:17-19, Mark 2:27-28, and through His Apostles, like Paul, who spoke of the Law being holy, just and good, etc. (Rom. 7:7, 21, 14; 1st Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1). In the last Scripture reference Paul tells his Corinthians to imitate Him as He imitated Christ. Now, if Jesus is the SAME yesterday, TODAY and forever (Heb. 13:8), how can Paul be imitating Jesus by keeping Sunday, Easter and Xmas??? That’s not a rhetorical question, Rob…please think about it, and the fact the Jesus’ death did not nullify Torah. He came to redeem Israel, not do away with God’s holy Law, which reveals what is sin and what is pleasing to God the Father, like keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy and celebrating Passover (cf. Rom. 3:20b). Keeping God’s days and ways are not a suggestion AND I find nowhere in Scripture where anyone says that Sunday has replaced God’s holy Sabbath day (cf. Gen. 2:1-3). Do you?
The only Scripture that speaks of “the Lord’s Day” is Rev. 1:10, and there is no equation in Scripture that says that the Lord’s Day is Sunday. That idea, that the Lord’s Day is Sunday, came from the Roman Catholic Church.
Rob, you said that I couldn’t prove that ALL Christians kept the Sabbath, etc., up until 120 AD, when Pope Sixtus threw out Mosaic Law and brought in Sunday and Easter, but I can. It’s very easy, and if you’ll take the time to read my article, The Lord’s Day–Sunday? you’ll see that both New Testament Scripture and Church History reveal that all Christians kept the Sabbath and Passover, etc., up until 120 AD. Then there was a split between Rome and Asia Minor, which kept Passover, not because it was a nice thing to do, BUT all the Christians there kept Passover because that’s how they were taught by the Apostles John and Philip. There’s actually a letter from Polycrates that literally speaks of this, with “all the bishops” of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey; Paul’s initial evangelical stomping grounds) at the conference, and all of them kept the “rituals” of the Jews, as you call it.
Now, you can continue to argue with me and say that you know things that are only your opinion, of you can choose to read the article, for I sense that you didn’t “Take the Quiz” as I suggested to you, nor read the Intro to my book on Acts 15:20-21. Such a shame! You have the opportunity to seriously be challenged by this, and I hope you take it. Then we can talk. I have given you more than enough to whet your appetite…that is if you truly hunger and thirst for Jesus and His Ways, but I sense that you’re set in your ways, so much so that you won’t take the time to read anything I’ve offered to you.
Also, keeping all the rules/laws of Moses that apply to any one person has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or “more righteousness,” but with understanding just how God desires for us to walk out our faith in His Son. You cannot show me anywhere in the New Testament where anyone says that Sunday replaced the Sabbath…because of the Resurrection or anything else. So, why do you follow Rome in Her days and ways that are contrary to the Lord’s? It was She who gave you Sunday, Easter, Xmas, and the eating of unclean animals, in contradistinction to your Savior who never spoke of Sunday, Easter or Xmas, and IF He ate a piece of bacon, He would have been a sinner. How is it that you can eat pig and not be sinning?
There is a lot here, Rob, and if you’re open, which I don’t think you are, but if you are open you will be scripturally challenged and persuaded in a way you have not known before.
Please read the articles and then we can talk. If you’re not going to read them, then there is no need for us to continue to dialogue.
Sincerely,
Avram
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
R. L. Solberg
Thanks, Avram. I agree that Scripture does not say that Sunday has replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. That’s not a claim I make.
What I believe the NT teaches is that, because of the death and resurrection of Christ, the Law of Moses is not binding on Christians today (Gal 3:24-25). It was binding on Jesus (Gal 4:4-5), and He lived it out perfectly (Eph 5:27; 1 Pet 1:19), thereby fulfilling it and ushering in God’s New Covenant. And our righteousness does not come from the law, it comes from faith in Jesus (Gal 2:16 ff.). We do not have a temple as the Mosaic law required, we are a temple (1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:21). We do not have a Levitical priesthood as the law required, we are a priesthood (1 Pet 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6). We do not make blood sacrifices to atone for our sins every year on Yom Kippur because Jesus was our sacrifice “once for all” (Heb 10:10), and therefore, “there is no longer any offering for sin.” (Heb 10:18). So it’s an unbiblical position to suggest that followers of Jesus are under the Mosaic law. Especially Gentile believers, who were never under the law in the first place!
One other thing. You made an untrue claim about me in your reply: “you said that I couldn’t prove that ALL Christians kept the Sabbath, etc….” But that’s not what I said at all. I said, “The fact that many Christians, especially Jewish followers of Jesus, kept both the Sabbath and Passover does not conflict with my position on Hebrew Roots.” Just wanted to correct the record.
Shalom!
Ric Joyner
To further explain a false gospel is being presented by Avram. Get saved through Christ now keep the Torah. False teaching. Jesus instituted a new covenant for the Jewish people and included Gentiles in the NC. The Gospel is laid out here. 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Ric Joyner
Avram who are you addressing?
Avram Yehoshua
I thought I was addressing Rob, but it seems I was addressing you. What I “wrote to Rob” certainly pertains to you, Ric. I’ve also specifically address a post to you.
Avram
Ric Joyner
First, thanks for the clarification. What I see a lot from Hrm is what I see in your posts. Long lengthy talking points that are just pieced together nonsense and twisted history. (Not trying to be offensive)
Second, The truth of scripture doesn’t matter in these long posts except using scripture to eisgesis to keep Torah which is the focal point. That is false teaching. Passover is coming up. Passover is about the blood on the doorposts and Christ fulfilled scripture by being the passover lamb and the blood on the cross. As unleavened bread is celebrated he fulfilled this as well by being sin for us. As a Gentile Christian and have been around Jesus believers who were in hrm I was trained well in torah keeping which is current jewish practices. But no more. Our eyes are on Christ to live praiseworthy to God and preach the Gospel acts 16:16-18. Blessings to you.
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
I can understand your attitude in casting my thoughts away with “talking points that are just pieced together nonsense and twisted history,” for you have been through the Hebrew Roots Movement, which is a heretical movement, but I’m not part of them, and what the Lord has given me is nothing that you have seen. It’s a shame you cannot or will not see that.
You speak of my post as eisgesis (sic: eisegesis), but you don’t present anything I’ve written as such. It’s very easy to swat something away and say it’s wrong and not worth your time, but haven’t you done to me what you think is wrong with the HRM? Also, the Scriptures I’ve used have not been taken out of context, but are the true understanding of God’s Word, yet all you’ve done is say I’m wrong. Great way to prove your point, Ric! And it’s a great way to prove my point about you: you are stuck in Rome’s tradition of anti-Mosaic Law theology and you think it pristine and of God. How are you different from the Pharisees, who thought that their views were right, even when God’s Word stood in front of them?
Blessings from Above, Ric,
Avram
The SeedofAbraham.net
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
You are right. Jesus instituted the New Covenant for both Jew and Gentile, but have you never read the only place in the Old Testament where the term “New Covenant” is literally mentioned? If you had you might not have been so quick to condemn me (“false gospel is being presented by Avram”). God spoke through the Prophet Jeremiah and said,
““Behold! The days are coming!” says Yahveh, When I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah! Not according to the Covenant that I made with their Fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My Covenant which they broke, though I was a Husband to them,” says Yahveh. But THIS is the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days,” says Yahveh: “I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR MINDS, and I WILL WRITE IT ON THEIR HEARTS, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know Yahveh!,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” says Yahveh. “For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The Hebrew word for “Law,” as in “I will put My Law in their minds,” is Torah, and as I believe, Rob knows, Torah is Hebrew for Mosaic Law (not just the Ten). This understanding, that part of God’s intention in giving Israel the New Covenant, is that He would write His Torah on their hearts and mind, is twice confirmed by the Author of Hebrews, who quoted Jeremiah, saying:
“For this is the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days,” says Yahveh: “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people!” (Hebrews 8:10)
““This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days,” says Yahveh: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”” (Hebrews 10:16)
Your understanding, of the place of Mosaic Law in the life of every Christian, is based on Rome’s anti-Mosaic Law theology. That is where you get that tradition from. It’s certainly not from the New Testament, even though I imagine that you have a few Scriptures that you think conceptually nullify what I’ve just written, BUT how can you deal with what I’ve just shown you? Is Jeremiah wrong? Is the Author of Hebrews wrong? Perhaps, just perhaps, you’re wrong, Ric.
IF you want to know what our faith walk in God’s Son should be, I would ask you to read these:
1. The Feasts of Israel and the Church
2. Law 102
3. The Lord’s Day–Sunday?
4. The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21
If you will read those four things, I think you will be persuaded, not by me, but by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus wants all His followers to actually walk out their faith in Him the way He did; by keeping all the rules or laws of Moses that apply to any one Christian (e.g. there are laws that apply to only women; Lev. 12:1f.).
It’s not a false Gospel I preach and teach, but the true Gospel of the Apostles. There’s no “smoke and mirrors” here; just the pure, unadulterated New Testament Word of God. Once saved, does it matter if you sin? (see Rom. 6:1-3) Tell me Rob, what is Paul’s specific New Testament definition of sin. If you can, you’re half-way out of the Catholic Pit of Tradition that nullifies God’s Word, that you’re in.
Blessings from Above,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram,
Always pointing to the Torah not to Christ I see. “Yes, Christ but we all have to keep Torah too.” And that is the false Gospel and twisting Scripture to fit this narrative which is false teaching. Avram the problem with engaging with the many Torah Keepers is it is repeat rinse, repeat rinse. We are under a new covenant as we have a new High Priest. I am not Jewish and since Our Lord Jesus Christ opened the door through His sacrifice I am not going to practice judaism. That takes my eyes off of Christ. The feasts are fulfilled or will have the fulfillment in Christ Jesus. I have no prob speaking to you vs testing. But rinsing the same arguments over and over is tiring. Rob has done an outstanding job laying this out here and in his book. Buy the book and watch his videos. Blessings.
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Ric,
Judaism? Who mentioned Judaism? Keeping Torah Jesus’ Way is not Judaism, Ric, and when you truly realize that Jesus kept Torah and was never legalistic about it, you might begin to imagine that we can do the same thing, by His Spirit, and not lose sight of the Master. Your arguments are rather shallow, Ric. I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but just as an observation. Also, you have not entered into a dialogue with me, but with some straw HR man : )
By all means! Keep your eyes on the Torah observant Jesus you say you are following.
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
Signing off from our “rinse and repeat,” “dialogue,” Ric.
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Correction: having been around Jewish believers not Jesus believers. Thanks
Ric Joyner
Acts 26:16-18
Avram Yehoshua
LOL! Revelation 12:17; 14:12
Ric Joyner
Avram, in my first posts I countered your claims. The rome thing is an HRM talking point and a go to and TK, HRM use the same language you do. If at some point you wish we can visit in a call. But speaking on here takes to long and texts can be misinterpreted. A great eisegesis of your posts is Matthew 5 which I already addressed. Ps the Rome thing is cringe. Hrm and TKs use anti church rhetoric like you do. It again is strawman. 🥴😊Blessings
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Ric, you speak of countering my claims and that HRM speaks of Rome. Well, if I were your teacher in Sunday School, I would have to give you an “F” because you never countered my claims. It’s very sad that you think so, and also, that you think following the Pope is the Way to follow Jesus. Again, where does anyone speak of Sunday replacing the Sabbath, a much needed statement for the NT if the Sabbath is no more. Your “ability for anyone to keep it, but not necessary,” is also not found in the NT. You are steeped in Rome’s theology, which is anti-Christ. Also, as for Adam and Eve sinning, and so you can disregard Mosaic Law, have you never read what Jesus said about the Gentiles becoming part of Israel? (John 10:6) And have you never read what Paul spoke about the Gentile being grafted into ISRAEL? (Rom. 11:11f.; Eph. 2:11f.) If the Gentiles are part of Israel, how is it that they don’t have to keep Israel’s Mosaic Law?
Blessings from Above, Ric, as you turn to your own theology on Mosaic Law. Also, you never answered my question about Paul’s specific definition of sin. It’s at Rom 3:20b. Read it and be in shock. Also, the Savior’s Hebrew name is Yeshua (there is no Hebrew name of Yahshua or Yehashua, and I am not HR).
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Breaking my own rule of li g posts but we need a Sunday school class. 😊Do you believe that after Christ came and instituted the New Covenant and He is our new high priest that believers in Christ who are born again and saved that we are to keep Torah today like the Jews? Especially since there is no temple which encompasses 247 laws as explained by my dear friend Dr Baruch Korman of loveIsrael.org. “There is no such thing as Torah Keeping”. If yes then that is heresy. Can we learn lessons from Torah? Oh yes! Do you believe that when Christ instructed His disciples to obey His commands that The Lord Jesus Christ was the same God on Mt Sinai in Exodus making a new covenant (Mosaic) and Moses was His apostle? (Shalakim) sp?). If so then we move to the “Prophet, like me (Moses) to come”. Jesus spoke to the disciples in the same manner as Moses and hand picked them and spoke to them as Moses in numbers 12. He completed (fulfilled) the prophesy for a NC. (Jeremiah) Did not Christ say follow me? Or was it to follow Moses? And where to? The cross, which defeated sin and death through Christ’s perfect sacrifice and gave us peace with God because of fulfillment defeating sin. John 20:21. Do you believe Christ was 100% God and, through the miraculous virgin birth, was 100% man without sin with both natures so He could be the perfect sacrificial lamb? If not heresy. Then on the mount of transfiguration God the Father said This is my beloved Son (the One to come, the Seed, the Messiah) with Moses (Law) and Elijah (prophets) there and This is my beloved Son, now listen to Him”. In Matthew 5 He did not come to abolish but to fulfill which is He died (as stated prior to you) for our sin debt (law) to God and cane in person which fulfilled both the law prophets. The argument with those whi say we are to keep Torah is misdirection. They focus on the law yet there is much more to the fulfillment as our fun time is mentioning. Lastly He said if you love me obey my commands. He gave us 1642 new Greek imperatives (commands) through His apostles like He did with Moses (613 hebrew imperatives) which both Jew and Gentiles can walk in with the power of the Holy Spirit. Or do you believe the false teaching that Jesus wishes us to “keep” torah because Christ did not fulfill it. What was the cross for? I now have fulfilled my Sunday school. Therefore Fs go to people who teach others Christ did not fulfill the OC by His blood and resurrection. Fs go to people who twist scripture and put people in bondage practicing Judaism as fulfilling the Torah. Fs go to people who bring up rome when it is not part of the convo. Fs go to people who say we are to keep the law of Moses and not the law of Christ. Fs go to people who practice the Torah today in an improper way… by works not by faith Romans 9:30-ff.
Anonymous
Looks like my comment got deleted accidentally, so I’ll ask again. When Yahushua told us to repent, what are we repenting of if not disobeying Torah?
R. L. Solberg
I replied to that comment. Maybe it’s getting lost in the shuffle? Here it is again: We are to repent of our sin, Anonymous! And, as I’m sure you’re aware, sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses, because that would mean that Adam and Eve never sinned. In fact, “sin was in the world before the law was given” (Rom 5:13, see also Ga; 3:19).
Blessings, Rob
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
I see you use Adam and Eve to skirt around Mosaic Law and God’s rules of what is sin for Israel. As I noted above, Gentiles are part of Israel, and so what God gave to Israel as sin, and also, how He desired for them to live (e.g. the Feasts of Israel), apply to Gentiles as part of Israel, or am I missing something here. I think it’s call progressive revelation. I hope you’ve read my replies to Ric, for they do pertain to you too, and I hope you can begin to answer them better than Ric who just shooed me away as one does a pesky fly. You need to explain how Jer. 31:33 apply in the New Covenant to Christians/Gentiles, as God speaks of placing Torah, not just the Ten, upon our hearts and mind; confirmed by Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16. Also, how every Christian kept the 7th day Sabbath and Passover, among other Mosaic Law rules, until Rome threw out Mosaic Law in 120 AD and brought in Sunday and Easter and an anti-Mosaic Law theology, based on God’s replacing the Jews, “who rejected Jesus,” with the Gentiles. Great theology, if one doesn’t have a Bible, but you do, Rob, and so I’m waiting to see how you justify Rome’s anti-Mosaic Law tradition, especially as “the Lord’s Day” never has anything in the NT equating it with Sunday. That too is of Rome.
Yes, sin was in the world before Mt. Sinai, but after Sinai it became more specific (Rom. 3:20b), as the Apostle Paul tells his Gentile Christians in Rome. After Sinai, one cannot revert back to Adam and Eve and say, “that’s all there is folks! Nothing to see here! Move along!” Especially as Gentiles are PART of Israel (Jn. 10:16; Rom. 11:11f.; Eph. 2:11f.).
Please read one or two of the articles that I’ve placed on this forum for Ric and you’ll see that your theological stand on Mosaic Law is not as solid as you think. By the way, I am not Hebrew Roots, as I believe that they (perhaps not every one of them) are a heretical movement due to a number of serious errors, one of which that comes to mind is that if you don’t say their particular name for the Messiah, whatever it may be in whatever congregation one is at, then you’re not saved, which is utter nonsense, as if no Christian before them, who never heard of their name for the Messiah, was saved because they used the name of Jesus. Satan loves to stir the Pot!, but our Lord if Faithful (John 7:31-32).
Blessings from Above, Rob, and looking forward to a real dialogue with you, that is, if you’re up to it,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Lorrie
Studying the return of Christ in AD70 to bring judgment to apostate Israel and deliver/save believing Israel and grafted gentiles from the tribulation of that time.
Christ fulfilled the Law. When Christ came in judgment, He put all enemies under His feet and handed the Kingdom over to God.
Christ is the Savior of all mankind. The Kingdom began with those first century believers and continues today some 2000 years. The Kingdom is spiritual and everlasting. We have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
R. L. Solberg
Well, setting aside the equivocal use of the word Israel: Are Gentiles who believe in Jesus grafted into Israel? Of course! But even Israel is not under the Law of Moses anymore. Why? Because the law that God gave to the ancient nation of Israel at Mount Sinai is no longer in effect. Galatians 3:24-25 teaches that before Jesus came, God’s people were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So the Law of Moses was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that Jesus has come, God’s people are no longer under the Mosaic law!
As for Jer 31 and the New Covenant language, remember that at the time of that prophecy, Israel was a divided nation. Yet God promised his new covenant to “the House of Israel and the House of Judah,” referring to the entirety of His people. And as we just discussed, Gentiles were later grafted/adopted into His family under said New Covenant, thereby fulfilling God’s promise to Abraham that in him “all the families of the Earth will be blessed” (Gen 12:3)! And under the New Covenant, God’s family is not bound by the Mosaic law (See Gal 3:24-25 above). This is why after His resurrection, Jesus gave a brand new command not found in the Torah: We are to make disciples of all nations (Matt 28:19-20) and baptize them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit! That’s a groundbreaking new command. The ancient nation of Israel was never commanded to make disciples of all nations. Rather they were set apart from all the other nations. Blessings!
Ric Joyner
Outstanding Rob!
Anonymous
Do you agree we are called to repent from disobeying Torah because it is also sin?
When you say “sin cannot be defined merely as a transgression of the Law of Moses,” it means disobeying Torah is a subset of sin and included in the definition sin.
R. L. Solberg
Disobeying the law of Moses was most definitely a sin for those who were under the Law of Moses. But, of course, we’re each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. And the ceremonial/ritual Mosaic commands do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required.) “We are released from the Law of Moses, having died with Christ to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6). Shalom!
Anonymous
At least we agree, before Yahushua died, he taught us to repent from disobeying Torah.
The next step is showing when Yahushua changed his meaning of repent to exclude disobeying Torah.
Unbelievers are condemned because they disobey Torah, but after repenting, you say believers are allowed to disobey Torah.
Unbelievers are condemned for eating pork, but after repenting of eating pork, they are allowed to eat pork.
Avram Yehoshua
Dear Rob,
You don’t seem to understand what being “under the Law” and being in the New Covenant mean, so let me explain it to you. Being “under the Law” means that the Law can only condemn a person, for all have sinned, and that person cannot use that to justify himself before God. Being “in Christ” one is not under the Law because to be “in Christ” one has to die to self and is Born Again. The Law’s ability to condemn stops at death, and so when one is baptized in water, which among other things means, that one has died to self, the Law cannot condemn that person anymore BUT the Glory of the Law is that the Law is still God’s holy Standard. When one sins now the Law cannot condemn us, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t follow the Law as God’s divine Guideline for how He wants us to walk out our faith in His Son. One plus one equals two. Now, with the Holy Spirit and our new Life in Christ, as new creatures, we can keep the Law from the inside-out, just as Jesus did when He was in Israel 2,000 years ago. One is not free when one sins, and the only way we can fully know what sin is, is by Torah/Mosaic Law, as the Apostle Paul himself states:
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20 NKJV)
The first phrase deals with those trying to justify themselves by keeping the Law: it cannot be done because we are sinful, carnal creatures. We must be changed, and this is where being Born Again comes in, but once saved, does it matter if we sin? Of course it does (Rom. 6:1-3f.).
The second part of the sentence speaks of Christian lifestyle. “For by the Law is the knowledge of sin” and actually, the Greek word that Paul uses for knowledge, gnosis, has a prefix of “epi,” and so the phrase should read in English, “For by the Law is the FULL Knowledge of sin. Christians, like yourself, have some knowledge of sin (don’t steal; love God, etc.), but because Torah has been denigrated by the Church as “not for Christians,” Christians don’t realize that God wants them to keep the Sabbath day holy, and the Feasts of Israel, and not to eat unclean animals like the pig. “For by the Law is the Full Knowledge of sin.” Keeping the Law doesn’t save anyone, but it does help them to see what God desires of them once they’re saved. Teachers like you, Rob, who come against Mosaic Law…for every Christian, do them a great disservice and cause them to sin against their Lord. Far from being “free in Christ,” you have enslaved them to the Pope, who gave you a “Law free Gospel.” Oh! That Jesus would open your eyes to His Days and His Ways.
Blessings from Above, Rob,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
R. L. Solberg
I agree, the law reveals that we are sinners. One of its primary functions is to show that we all fall short (Rom 3:23) and point us to our need for a savior!
Breaking down the verse you cited: “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight…” (Rom 3:20a)
The reason we are not justified through the law is not that, as you suggested, “we are sinful, carnal creatures,” (although that much is true), but rather because God determined from the beginning that justification would come through faith and not the law. In other words, the law was never intended as God’s means of justification. It was always intended to act as a temporary guardian/tutor to lead God’s people to Jesus (Gal 3:24-25).
“…since through the law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20b). Yes, the law serves to highlight the moral bankruptcy of the human race. It doesn’t make us sinners, of course, but rather it reveals us to be sinners and, therefore, it points us to our need for a savior. It points us to Jesus. And so we can’t define sin simply as disobeying the law of Moses. Because sin existed long before the law was given (Rom 5:13). So your suggestion that “the only way we can fully know what sin is, is by Torah/Mosaic Law” is not a Biblical statement. I say that for two reasons.
First, sin was defined before the law was ever given. When God commands us not to murder today, it’s not because of the Ten Commandments. It’s because of His universal principle against murder. Long before God gave Israel the Law of Moses, Cain was judged for murdering his brother Abel (Gen 4:8-16). Same thing with sexual morality. Under the New Covenant, God doesn’t forbid adultery because of the Mosaic law. Unfaithfulness and sexual immorality were wrong long before that law was given, as we see, for example, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18-19).
And second, mankind was made in God’s image, we have a “compass” of objective morality, so to speak, baked into our human DNA (Rom 2:14-16). And under the New Covenant, God’s law is written on our hearts. Therefore, “we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom 7:6).
When it comes to obedience, we’re each only expected to keep the commands of God that apply to us. And the ritual Mosaic commands do not apply to Christians today. (ex. Repeated blood sacrifices for sin are no longer required.) That said, the Mosaic rituals were not forbidden. Those who choose to keep them are well within their freedom in Christ to do so! (And it especially makes sense for those of Jewish ethnicity who see those rituals as boundary markers of their identity. That’s a beautiful thing.) But keeping them is not required of followers of Yeshua, and doing so does not add one ounce to our righteousness in God’s eyes.
Shalom! Rob
Anonymous
Rob, I understand your position, but can we go step by step. What is the next logical step to show that Yahushua changed his meaning of repent to exclude disobeying Torah?
Ric Joyner
Rob,
I so appreciate this perspective as having lived through Messianic Judaism and then encountering within MJ torah keeping groups then Hebrew roots group. The confusion produced by these groups causes me to want to learn how to study scripture to live a praiseworthy life to God. What is so odd and really never brought up is Paul was persecuted by the (torah keeping) Jews (who then used the Torah to kill an innocent man, in Jesus Christ) (and we see this “killing” of Christians verbally for not keeping Mosaic torah but do try to keep our Lord Jesus commands) and these Unbelieving Jews persecuted Paul and the disciples relentlessly because he was preaching, as you shared that it is by faith we pls God and now are saved through Christ. Romans 9:30-ff is the best Scripture. The whole feast of unleavened bread shows we cannot get sin out of our life with even the adherence to a once per year festival! He was made sin for us. Fulfilled. He came as predicted therefore fulfilled. The moral law as a gentile and torah law racked up a huge sin debt against us to God as a witness. His payment fulfilled that debt. My point? Paul was persecuted by these torah keeping Jews. Do we have evidence that Jews were thrilled to be out from under the mosaic law? Yes. Paul had to rebuke peter and Barnabas for indeed living like gentiles but when the pharisaic believers were around they hypocritically would go under the law and when the pharisaic believers (torah keepers) were around but peter and Barnabas would disfellowship with their gentile brothers. This is torah keeping. This very thing is happening in HRM, Mj Tks etc because of the attack on the church and misrepresenting with bad history it comes from Rome. Attack Easter and Christmas. Is it no accident that most in these false teaching movements are from a pentecostal or charismatic background? So your focus on freedom in Christ is outstanding. Paul does an excellent job of showing us this very concept through his epistles.
Avram Yehoshua
Rob, I am not Messianic nor am I Hebrew Roots nor am I One Law. Please try and deal with what I write to you and don’t lump me into those categories. They all have their heresies, as I’m sure you’re aware of. I am of The Hebraic Perspective.
Avram
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram do you believe Christians are to keep Torah? Yes you have said. Can you explain how you are not aligned with these groups? Your theology appears to be the same. Keep Torah and not only that but your talking points the same. Going to your site you even have the garb on and encourage the same Torah Keeping principles. In TK or hrm they will change their names like yours to reflect their new identity. Is this your real birth name? I have found groups like the other Seed of Abraham that say the same thing you do of hebraic perspective yet align well with HRM Tk. So how do you differ?
Avram Yehoshua
Sorry Ric, it looks like I’ve been blocked:
A potentially unsafe operation has been detected in your request to this site
Your access to this service has been limited. (HTTP response code 403)
If you think you have been blocked in error, contact the owner of this site for assistance.
Block Technical Data
Block Reason: A potentially unsafe operation has been detected in your request to this site
Time: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 16:29:00 GMT
If you like, contact me via my email address: AvramYeh@Gmail.com
Avram
Ric Joyner
Rob would not block you for the posts i have seen
Avram Yehoshua
Here’s what I wrote, Ric:
“Rob, I am not Messianic nor Hebrew Roots, nor am I One Law. Please try and deal with what I write to you and don’t lump me into those categories. They all have their heresies, as I’m sure you’re aware of. I am of The Hebraic Perspective.
Avram
Ric Joyner
Anonymous,
You asked Rob to go through an analysis here is his article. https://rlsolberg.com/is-the-covenant-new-or-renewed/
My questionS to you ARE if Christ, Who is God Almighty, the same God on Mt Sinai and met with Moshe on the mountain and in person (numbers 12) gave Moses the Torah, and finally came and fulfilled the prophets (see Matthew 5) and told us to obey His commandments (john 14:15) which He now gave through His disciples (new Moses if you will) and all the teaching He gave could not be contained in books (john last chap) and it was so vast and the Torah (Hebrew imperatives) was rolled into these 1642 Greek Imperatives (commands) of the NC which Jesus said to obey (are you obeying them?) to get at the real root of sin which was our real source of our thinking and therefore His death and blood fulfilled the sin debt against us and therefore fulfilled the law (Matthew 5)(eph 4) and therefore Christ put the Torah in our hearts as explained in the New Covenant. (So your argument of defining sin goes away because the HS IS WITHIN US AND WE HAVE his word from His apostles (Moses). So what law are we to keep as now Jew and Gentile? Torah when Christ fulfilled it? The Greek Imperatives are Torah instruction too. Same God on Mt Sinai and Mt Beatitudes. How is keeping Mosaic Torah today help us live praiseworthy to Christ? Did we not by faith die to the law? Romans, But live through Christ? How do you keep Mosaic Torah with no temple? Do you model after Judaism? If so how does one keep shabbat? Modeling Jewish Shabbat practices? Lighting candles and havdalla bread and reciting Jewish prayers? That is practicing Judaism which Torah keepers do. Then are you following Judaism vs Christ? Jesus said to follow Him now not Moshe. Why did Jesus tell Paul to go to the gentiles if we are to live like Jews? Should not everyone convert to Judaism? (Believe me I have seen this happen) Paul went after these Judaizers which were real Jews that were putting people under Judaism and Torah. Today we have gentiles who practice judaism in the name of Torah keeping. In fact, it is like they want to be better Jews than jews! I actually had one say that! Even to wearing jewish ancient garb? Is not there a pick and choose of keeping Torah which is forbidden by the Torah? Are you going three times per year to Jerusalem? If not then you are a Torah breaker. That is HRM/Tks/MJ etc with pick what i want to keep of Torah. So false. What are your thoughts?
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Ric,
You remind me of a broken record…you only have a certain anti-Torah song you sing and you cannot or will not, hear what the Holy Spirit is speaking to you through me and others. Also, you have not persuaded me with your arguments against Torah (like saying to Anonymous that he was sinning if he didn’t keep all the laws of Moses, like going on pilgrimage three times a year to Jerusalem). Do you keep the law against lesbianism? (Rom 1:18-28f.) Of course, not because it doesn’t apply to you. Did Jesus Christ keep all the laws of Moses that you say He fulfilled, and so you don’t have to keep them? No He didn’t. He wasn’t a woman and so the laws on child birth and menstruation (Lev. 12; 15:19f.) didn’t apply to Him. He also didn’t offer up the sacrifices on the Day of Atonement, for He wasn’t the High Priest (Lev. 16). So, He didn’t keep all the laws, and neither do we have to keep them if they don’t apply to us and it isn’t possible to keep them. For example animal sacrifice. Ah! You say! Animal sacrifice! Haven’t you read that your favorite Apostle did that AFTER the Resurrection? (Acts 18:18; 21:20-24f.) Was Paul wrong? No one says that in the New Testament, not even Paul. So, how do you reconcile that with Jesus being the one time Sacrifice???
Ric, you are not open to understanding what anyone is saying to you from this sphere, and even though I disagree with the HR and Messianic movements, they do raise some interesting questions for you that you really haven’t answered. You are not a theologian, Ric, and so you really should let Rob answer these queries. After all, isn’t this Rob’s site?
Your main problem, if I might bring this up, and I do hope that you hear me, is that you lump me in with the Judaizers. Their problem, and why Paul came against them, is that they taught the Mosaic Law, symbolized in physical, covenantal circumcision, along with faith in Christ, saved a person. This was struck down at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), which said that it was only faith in Christ and the Gentile must not be circumcised (as Paul later writes of in Rom. 2). Then James writes of four rules (your new Moses rules, no?) that every Gentile had to keep. The Church interprets the rules as those for Table Fellowship, that if the Gentile would keep them, not out of obligation, but out of love for his Jewish counterpart, then they could go to a picnic together and the Jew wouldn’t be offended. The problem with this is that nowhere in Acts 15, nor anywhere else in the NT, does anyone tell the Gentile WHICH unclean animals they couldn’t bring to the picnic. This shatters the Church’s interpretation of the four rules, which are not rules for Table Fellowship at all, but a conceptual unit on sacrificial, sexual idolatry, that if the Gentile didn’t immediately stop, his salvation would truly be in jeopardy. Gentiles didn’t know Adam from Eve, and ALL the Gentile world was filled with paganism. James four rules deal with the most gross pagan sacrificial habits of the Gentiles, for in Gentile land they were accustomed to adding gods and goddesses to their Pantheons. Many of them would add Jesus and worship of Him on the Sabbath, and then go to worship Diana on Sunday, with her temple prostitutes. You really owe it to yourself, Ric, to read my book on Acts 15, which is called The Lifting of the Veil—Acts 15:20-21, for it reveals not only the proper understanding of the four rules, but also that James saw all the Gentiles going to the synagogues (both Christian and Jewish) to learn the rules of Moses that applied to them (Acts 15:21). An article that would be good for you to read is, Law 102, for it deals with all the places in the New Testament that Christians use to justify their eating of food that, if Jesus had eaten, would have made Him a sinner. Jesus did not fulfill the Law so you could break it. Grace is not a license to sin.
Once the Gentile (or the Jew) was Born Again, they both had to walk in Mosaic Law, as interpreted by Yeshua/Jesus, for Torah is God’s holy Standard for our Christian lifestyle. Keeping Torah is God’s divine requirement, but not for salvation. How can you say you are following Jesus, who to this day would keep Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel, and not eat pork, and would sacrifice animals (see Ezk. 40–47) as the Prince, if He were on Earth, for He is the SAME yesterday, TODAY and forever (Heb. 13:8), if you are not actually following and imitating Him, as Paul did? (cf. 1st Cor. 4:16-17, 5:6-8; 11:1).
Satan, through Rome, has deceived you, but like every person who is deceived, they don’t see it, even when it’s clearly brought to their attention. You think you are right in your theological position, but you are sinning against Jesus every day, and leading many other to sin against Him too. You are not free to do your own thing, but free to follow Him and not sin.
May God have mercy on your soul, for this godly understanding of Christian lifestyle has been brought to your attention, but you continue to sing your own broken song, over and over again.
Sincerely,
Avram Yehoshua
Minister and Senior Elder
The SeedofAbraham.net
Ric Joyner
Avram,
It is sad to me that you continually use passive aggressive digs. It really is beneath you. I am not treating you in this manner. Here is an article I found that will help you. I am working on a paper on this very subject. https://trainingleadersinternational.org/jgc/16/the-law-and-the-christian
Note: I only read the first paragraph because I am under a deadline. So therefore the long post goes to waste. I have heard so many talking points that nothing new is presented except they sprinkle it with passive aggressive digs like you do. I rather like your spunk.
Now here are some questions for you. Do you believe that Christians are to keep the Torah? Yes you have said. Then you are Hebrew Roots (Hebraic) and Torah Keeper. If as you say there are differences between those can you please explain? Do you believe that one must speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit to be saved?
Avram Yehoshua
Hello Rob,
Your reasoning is faulty. You speak of sin being known before Torah, and I agree, but there is no sin before Torah that isn’t specifically mentioned in Torah, and so Torah trumps all sins that God called to account (like the murder of Abel by his brother Cain). Torah not only encompasses all those pre-Torah sin, but it adds many, many more that cannot be known by our conscience, like the 7th day Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel and the Mosaic Dietary laws.
You speak of Rom. 2:14-16 as having “baked in our DNA” all the sins we need to know, but obviously, if Jesus hadn’t kept the Sabbath day holy He would have sinned. How can you, a member of Israel through faith in Christ, say that you don’t have to keep the rules that your King kept, AND STILL KEEPS AS HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER? (Heb. 8:13)
Faulty reasoning has led you to jettison God’s holy Law as your divine Guideline for walking with your Messiah. If it was sin for Jesus, how could it not be sin for His followers?
Your understanding of what it is to be released from the Law (your faulty use of Rom. 7:6), applies to Paul’s illustration of the woman married to a man, who then dies. She is released from the bond of her former husband so she can marry another. We are released from being “under the Law of Moses” which can only condemn us as sinners, to being in bond/married to Jesus, who has given us a new nature, His, and in obtaining this we have died to self, and so the Law’s just condemnation of us is negated, for the Law’s authority to condemn us stops at our death. Now, “in Christ” we don’t have “another law” as you say, the law of our conscience, but we have Mosaic Law as interpreted by Christ and fueled by His Spirit so we can walk AS HE WALKED. Why would Jesus even say He was Lord of the Sabbath (Mk. 2:28) AND that Not a jot or tittle of the Law would be negated until there were a new Heavens and Earth, if Mosaic Law is our divine Guideline “in Christ”? You err, Rob, in not understanding this passage:
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are WITHOUT LAW, as without law (NOT BEING WITHOUT LAW TOWARD GOD, BUT UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST!), that I might win those who are without law;” (1st Corinthians 9:19-21 NKJV, CAPS mine)
What did Paul mean by saying He was under Law toward God and Christ, Rob? What Law? Your law of conscience? I doubt it, because if Paul meant that he would have said it. It’s Mosaic Law that Paul is speaking about, as nowhere in Scripture does Paul, or anyone else, speak of Sunday keeping or Sunday replacing the Lord’s (Jesus’) Sabbath, or of keeping Easter, etc.
You open your remarks by speaking about our need for a Savior, but that’s “a given” Rob. Please don’t demean yourself by stating the obvious. May remarks about Torah being for every Christian are geared for those who love Christ and have been Born Again (Jn. 3:3, 5). Of course, no one could be justified by keeping the Law, as Israel was saved from Egypt by the blood of the lamb, AND then given the Law to rule its lifestyle after they were saved, at Mt. Sinai. We are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, but once saved, does it matter if you sin? Of course it does! (Rom. 6:1-3) Your understanding of Rom. 3:20b is not accurate. The Law still leads us to Christ and His Ways and Days, not the Pope’s Days and Ways, as you endorse in your “freedom.”
Since you are not able to understand the simple text of Rom. 3:20b, which states that it’s by the Law that we have the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, since it’s in a new way that we serve, BY THE SPIRIT, by keeping the Law, just as Jesus did, I will give you another example of what our God wants in terms of Christian lifestyle.
In Mt. 22:35-40, a scribe comes to Jesus and asks Him what the greatest commandment is. Jesus speaks of the Law’s commandment to love God with all one’s heart, soul and strength AND then adds the next greatest commandment: to love your neighbor as yourself. THEN He says something that allows us to realize WHERE all the other rules and laws of Moses stem from: “On these two commandments HANG ALL the Law.” In other words, EVERY LAW has its reason for being in helping us to understand either HOW to love God or HOW to love our neighbor. Can you see what Mosaic Law is now, Rob? It’s God’s very definition of Love. When you take the Sabbath and the Feasts of Israel away from Christians, you are taking away God’s very expression of HOW to love Him. The same holds true for the Mosaic Dietary laws, for this is how we love ourselves and our neighbors, in being godly witnesses of our Lord.
Rob, you can preach and teach your anti-Mosaic Law Gospel/lifestyle to any people group in the world, except the Jewish people who know that when their Messiah would come, He would not abrogate Sabbath and Feasts, etc., and isn’t this exactly what Jesus said?
““Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17 NKJV) How could Jesus say that, and in the same breath, according to you, give “freedom” from the Law to every Christian? You err greatly in your theological understanding of the PLACE of God’s Law in the life of every Christian because you have been deceived by Rome about Torah. Read my article, The Lord’s Day–Sunday? http://seedofabraham.net/The-Lords-Day-Sunday.pdf and you’ll find references galore for how Sunday came to be “The Lord’s Day,” and why it’s not The Lord’s Day, from both Scripture and Church History (Letters of Ignatius, etc., that speak of the Sabbath still being kept in the first part of the second century, and who changed it). I think you’ll like it, Rob.
Blessings from Above,
Avram
Minister and Senior Elder
By the way, I’m 71 years old and I have been walking with Jesus since 1975 (47 years), and the Lord began to show me His Days and His Ways in 1983 (40 years ago, Rob), and my love for Him and His Days and Ways has only increased. I am saved by faith in Him and being Born Again, and I walk like He walked; following ALL the rules of Mosaic Law that apply to me.
The SeedofAbraham.net
Anonymous
What do you know about New Covenant not starting until after the 1000 year reign and we will have animal sacrifices during the 1000 year reign with Yahushua?
Luke
Great article and lots of very interesting discussion. I’m a gentile, but some of my favorite Bible teachers are Jews including Baruch Korman and Seth Postell. I largely agree with Robs position and a key reason is a point raised by Seth Postell – if the Torah was to be seen as a lawbook, it would have started at Exodus 20. But it didn’t, it started at Genesis, because God’s intention is that we see the Torah as a narrative and the central figure of that narrative (from beginning to end) was Christ Jesus, or Messiah Yeshua. He came to fulfil the Torah – the narrative of our bondage to sin and freedom from it through faith in Him.
To be Torah observant is to accept it’s central character into your life. The trial of Steven vs the Pharisees shows the two interpretations of the Torah (a lawbook or a narrative).
Ric Joyner
Luke outstanding comment. Dr. Baruch is a good friend of ours at biblestudycompany.com. We knew him when… I was just working on a paper when this came through. I will give you to a link of a paper I found in my own research. You will find this easy to read. I have not sent this to Baruch as of yet. This link is safe. https://trainingleadersinternational.org/jgc/16/the-law-and-the-christian
Ric Joyner
I do agree however with its entire premise. We are not under the law and can’t be.
Ric Joyner
Luke consider getting Prof Solbergs book if you haven’t already. I have watched for the lst year this develop nicely. Torah Keeping is such a damaging false Gospel.
Luke
Thanks so much for your kind words Ric – I’ve listened to some of your podcasts before so it is great to be connected. Baruch has been such a wonderful teacher for me and I’m hoping to meet him later this year at his Australian conference. I’ll check out that link as well as buying myself a copy of the book – thanks for both recommendations.
God bless you
Ric Joyner
Well let’s stay connected. rj@biblestudycompany.com Ps you will love that article. BTW Baruch and I have some good arguments that you would enjoy. He just sent an email with these exact words. There is no such thing as Torah Keeping. Interesting.
David
I think God has things/jobs for all his people. Not everyone is tasked with the same things. We all have different things unique. The Christmas debate was something I was dealt with for a while. Nothing that anyone convinced me of. I believe the church has been lead the wrong way in a lot of areas. Listening to his still calm voice and abiding to it is necessary in your walk with God. Stop being so judgemental and exercise some humility when dealing with others.
David
Also remember that we are grafted in to THE TREE. We (representatives) will be required to annual trips to Jerusalem during the millennial reign. We will all become Jews during that period.